"Terms of Endearment" (1983) with Ben Carpenter

Tim Williams: Long before a generation of moviegoers realized that a simple line like, Give my daughter the shot would break them entirely, James L. Brooks crafted a generational mother-daughter comedy drama that effortlessly pivoted from biting humor to soul-crushing heartache. It's emotionally seismic storytelling where Shirley McLean and Deborah Winger drive each other completely insane one minute and tear your heart out the next. So hop into a 1978 Ford Pinto. Buckle up for a ride with the astronaut next door and meet us in Houston, Texas, as Ben Carpenter and I discuss Terms of Endearment from 1983 on this episode of the 80s Flick Flashback Podcast. Well, welcome to the show, everybody. I'm your host, Tim Williams. So glad to have you joining us today for a film as emotionally complex brilliantly. brilliantly acted and devastatingly funny as this Academy Award juggernaut. I couldn't think of a better guy to share the cinematic journey with. So please, welcome back to the show, The Incomparable Ben Carpenter. How you doing, Ben?

Ben Carpenter: I'm great. I didn't know I was incomparable. That's good good good to know. I'm putting that on my resume.

Tim Williams: yes, yes. Put on your business card. They have

Ben Carpenter: Yes.

Tim Williams: do they make business cards anymore? I don't know. Terms of Endearment. so yeah, just I've added this here recently, a little film synopsis. So if you're not as familiar with this movie, which why would you not be? But Terms of Endearment is a 1983 film directed, written, and produced by James L. Brooks, adapted from Larry McCurdy's. 1975 novel. The ensemble cast includes Deborah Winger, Shirley McLean, Jack Nicholson, Danny DeVito, Jeff Daniels, and John Lithgow. The film covers 30 years of the relationship between Aurora Greenway, played by Shirley McLean, and her daughter Emma, played by Deborah Winger. So this movie is a wild ride for sure. And I know

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: we're gonna jump in and talk about it, but let's start where we start normally, because it's gonna have a lot to do with how I start. When did you see terms of endearment for the first time, Ben?

Ben Carpenter: I s saw it when I was I didn't I don't think I saw it in the movie theater, but

Tim Williams: Mm.

Ben Carpenter: if I remember correctly it was a nut we've talked about this almost

Tim Williams: Ha ha ha.

Ben Carpenter: every episode we do, about how it was on HBO on a loop.

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: and so I th I think I saw it f probably for the first time on HBO and I watched it I watched it a lot. I really liked it as a kid. I guess I I felt like it you know, I my childhood was a little bit topsy turvy and I felt like maybe this sort of was a movie that was sort of captured that.

Tim Williams: Okay.

Ben Carpenter: so I think that's why I I gravitated towards it and really watched it a lot, even though it was dealing with a lot of stuff that I was way too young to understand. So

Tim Williams: for sure, yeah, absolutely.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, but yeah, I I think I saw it probably in I you know, back then things didn't come on till on HBO for another year after they were out in the theaters. So I probably saw it

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: in eighty four, I would have been about eleven years old. Yeah.

Tim Williams: Okay. Yeah, this is one I'll be honest. I d I think today was the first time I've watched it all the way through that I remember. But I

Ben Carpenter: wow. Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: have like I was telling my wife, 'cause she was like, I I saw that movie so many times with my mom. I was like, I know the movie, like I'm very familiar with it. I've heard it mentioned many times, I've seen clips of it. I have a very, very vague memory of my mom taking me and my sister to see it. Not because we wanted to see it, it was like it was the summer. We were she w we were out of school. My mom wanted to go to the movies. There was no babysitter. It was PG,

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: so it wasn't going to be too terrible. and I think I fell asleep in it. Like that's the memory I had that I saw like the first 15 minutes and then woke up when it was over. Like that's what I kinda remembered. So,

Ben Carpenter: All right. Yeah.

Tim Williams: and I think just because it was seemed to be more of an adult type of movie, I just never gravitated towards it as a kid.

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: but of course, watching it. Now I'm like, this is such a phenomenal movie. Like I understand now why it has the the prestige that it does as an eighties movie and like one of the you know, a lot of who said one of the greatest movies ever made. I don't know if it's quite at that level, but very well, very well done movie for sure. So but for you,

Ben Carpenter: yes. Yeah.

Tim Williams: how long has it been since you rewatched it before watching it for the podcast?

Ben Carpenter: It had been yeah, it had been a long time. I'm not sure

Tim Williams: Ha ha ha.

Ben Carpenter: exactly, but

Tim Williams: Right.

Ben Carpenter: it close to forty years. I mean, you know, I s like I said,

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: I s I watched it a lot on HBO when it was on, but probably once it left HBO. I may have you know, back when D V Ds were first coming out, I would I

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: would go back and watch a lot of things. on d you know, wow, I can watch it now and it looks so much better than VHS or whatever. So

Tim Williams: Mm. right, right. Yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: I probably I pr this is probably one that I watched again back then, so like in the late nineties sometime, maybe. But yeah,

Tim Williams: Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: hadn't seen it hadn't seen it in a long time. And couldn't remember that much about specific scenes, but it you know,

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: it all came back to me, felt very familiar as I was watching it.

Tim Williams: Gotcha. Yeah. I I I have no rewatchability because I don't remember

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: seeing it until today. So and it's funny because I've I've been wanting to see it like especially like since starting the podcast, like in the eighties movies. It's like, you know, I know I'm gonna cover this movie, but I kinda wanted to wait. I was like, I wanna wait until I'm I'm gonna focus on watching. I just have something on just to have it on for the sake of watching, you know, just sometimes

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: I have movies I'm watching and like I have it on while I'm doing something else. I was like, I really wanna like spend the time and focus on it. So it was good today to just really kind of take it in kind of you know as a first-time watch. So I don't get

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: those experiences on the podcast too much. So this is one of those rarities where it's like, this isn't one that I kind of gush about because I knew it as a kid. This was kind of like a first-time watch for me, so which is always fun to do. So

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.

Tim Williams: all right. Well, now it's time where we put our 80s flick behind-the-scenes knowledge to the ultimate test. It's time

Ben Carpenter: Mm.

Tim Williams: to play risky quizness. So I've got Five statements about the story origin and pre production of terms of endearment, and you have to let me know if you think the statements I say are true or false. And listeners, please feel free feel free to play along as Ben tries to see if he can get all right. And he's he's by himself,

Ben Carpenter: Hm, okay. Yeah.

Tim Williams: so no no team to work with, but I think I think

Ben Carpenter: Well, I've got I've got my movie buff aunt in the other room. I could bring her in. Like she may know some of this that I don't, but yeah.

Tim Williams: She may know, yeah. Alright, here we go. You ready? All right.

Ben Carpenter: I'm ready. Ready as I'm gonna get.

Tim Williams: Yep. Number one, true or false. The film's writer and director, James L. Brooks, originally offered the role of Aurora Greenway to the legendary actress Katherine Hepburn, who turned it down because she felt the character was too unsympathetic. True or false.

Ben Carpenter: I will I'll I'm gonna say false to that 'cause I'm gonna wait, you said c wait, you said Katherine Hepburn?

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: Hm. No, I yeah, I I misheard you. Thought you said Catherine Now it now the name's gone. okay. I'm not off to a great start already. true.

Tim Williams: That is true. Hepburn was indeed an early choice for Aurora, but she declined the project, paving the way for Shirley McLean to take over the role. So and she's coming right off of we talked about on Golden Pond an early earlier podcast. And this is like a year later, so she was, you

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: know, still very much she might have been a little too old for the role, maybe, at least for the earlier portions of of the movie, you think. But

Ben Carpenter: Right. Yeah.

Tim Williams: but I could see him wanting like a legendary, you know. strong actress for that for that role. So but yeah. All

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Tim Williams: right. Number two, true or false. Jack Nicholson's iconic, swaggering character of retired astronaut Garrett Breedlove was a prominent fixture in the original best selling novel, True or False.

Ben Carpenter: I did look up some stuff about the novel 'cause I had forgotten that it was based on a novel and

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: and by the guy who wrote Lonesome Dove and mostly mostly wrote Western. So I was kinda surprised

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: by that. And I did see that there were a lot of differences between the book and

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: the movie. So I will guess that yes, this is one of those differences and he was not in the book. I d I forget w whether that's true or false, but I'll say the character was not in the book.

Tim Williams: Okay, your answer would be false, and you would be correct. Garrett Breedlove was entirely created for the film adaptation by James L. Brooks. The character does not exist in McCartney's book, written specifically to give Knuckleson a showstopping supporting role. So, yeah. I

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: think he said he kind of he there was like there was one of her suitors in the book, but when he was thinking

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: about for the movie, he was like, Well, they're in Houston. Houston is like You know, that's like NASA Central, especially back in the in the seventies when or like the early seventies at the beginning of the movie. And he was like,

Ben Carpenter: Right.

Tim Williams: So let's make him an astronaut. And then he thought about the guy next door being kind of like a little bit more of on the dirty side, I guess. And so that's kind of how he

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: built that character together, which I thought was like I mean, one of the greatest characters of the movie for sure. Yeah. and Nickel

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, for sure. Mm hmm. It's hard to it's hard to imagine the movie movie without him for real, yeah.

Tim Williams: Yeah, yeah. And with anybody else but Nicholson playing it, but we'll we'll

Ben Carpenter: Right.

Tim Williams: we'll we'll follow that rabbit trail in a minute. All

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: right, number three, true or false. Deborah Winger and Shirley McLean had a famously harmonious, sisterly working relationship on set, often spending their weekends together to bond before filming emotional scenes. True or false. I was like you should.

Ben Carpenter: I know this one. I know. That is definitely false. They did not get along.

Tim Williams: Right, Ryan. They did not. Most of the research I found for this movie was more about the not not really a rivalry, but just how much they did not get along

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: during the movie. They clashed frequently. they said that McLean famously flashed her award to Winger after winning the best act actress Oscar over her. And there's also reports that Deborah Winger behaved erratically on the set because she was fighting severe cocaine addiction. At one point, her and Shirley McLean actually got into a shoving match. There's lots of stories. I'm sure you'll find it all online, so I won't go into all the different different stories. but yeah. All right, you're doing great so far. You're three for five. Let's see if you can keep the the winning train going. True or false? The studio was initially terrified that the film's wild tone shifts, moving rapidly from laugh out loud romantic comedy to a tragic terminal illness drama. That that would alienate audiences, leading to a push for a complete re edit before the release. True or false?

Ben Carpenter: It sounds totally believable to me because yeah, it it does swing wildly back and forth and it works, but I could see some people saying, No, this will never work. So I'll say I forgot again whether is that true or false? Yeah. Yeah, true, true. I th they did they did try to re edit it. That's what I'll say.

Tim Williams: True. Going going true. Yes. And that is also correct. Execs were deeply worried about the tone of whiplash, but Brooks stood his ground and the unique blend of comedy and tragedy became a massive box office phenomenon. So all right. I think you're gonna get this last one as well. Pretty simple, true or

Ben Carpenter: Mm, yes.

Tim Williams: false. Terms of endearment swept the fifty six Academy Awards, winning five Oscars, including Best Picture, true or false.

Ben Carpenter: that's true.

Tim Williams: It is true. They received a total of eleven nominations and won five awards Best Picture, Best Director, Best Actress for Shirley McLean, Best Adapted Screenplay, and Best Supporting Actor for Jack Nicholson. Clean sweep. Good job, my friend.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. yeah, well I mean yeah, thank you. Yeah, it clean

Tim Williams: Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: sweep at the Oscars for terms of endearment and clean clean sweep for me here, so

Tim Williams: Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: I'll accept my award. just you can just mail it to me.

Tim Williams: sure. you don't you don't have to flash it at me or anything to say why you want it. Right, right, right.

Ben Carpenter: Right. Look what I won and you didn't.

Tim Williams: yeah, I think there was some quote about Sherlin McLean when she when she showed her the award after the Academy Award, she said, Half of this is yours and Deborah Muir says, Give me my half. So

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. I mean I don't know if we are we if we are gonna talk about the awards again later, but if the if now's the time to talk yeah, it's

Tim Williams: No, this is pretty much the only place I want to talk about it. Yeah, let's talk about it.

Ben Carpenter: when I when I saw that that they had that it had won those five, that's just

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: one shy like if you make Jack Nicholson a leading actor,

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: that's only ever been done three times before. Only three movies have won best picture, best director, best screenplay, best actor, best actor.

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: Do you know those?

Tim Williams: I don't. I was hoping you're hoping you're gonna tell me.

Ben Carpenter: I do know. Yeah. Yeah. the first one was it happened one night, which was about the

Tim Williams: Okay.

Ben Carpenter: sinking of the T Titanic. It was I I

Tim Williams: Right.

Ben Carpenter: don't know what year, like nineteen thirty five or something.

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: And then one flew over the cuckoo's nest. Jack Nicholson one

Tim Williams: Yep, Dak Nicholson was also in.

Ben Carpenter: yeah. And Silence of the Lambs. Yep. So

Tim Williams: yeah. Great movies.

Ben Carpenter: mm hmm. And this one's right up there with I mean, almost is in that,

Tim Williams: Ha ha ha.

Ben Carpenter: you know. that h that rare air of yeah,

Tim Williams: Same caliber. yeah.

Ben Carpenter: the the winning all those five Oscars. So

Tim Williams: Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, if you played along at home, please let us know how you did. Send us a message on social media. Send us an email at info at eighties flick flashback.com, or you can leave us a comment right here on YouTube if that's where you're watching the show. So all right, let's jump into casting. I mean, I've kind of already mentioned who all's in this movie, Stellar Cast. I I think that's one thing that even me watching again today for the first time, just how stacked this cast is and everybody is like so well it's so well cast.

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: again. So but at the top of the list is Shirley McLean as Aurora Greenway. of course we talked about her in her episode about sweet magn sweet sweet sweet magnolias? Steel magnolias I was like I was like sweet magnolias doesn't sound right. That's a T V show.

Ben Carpenter: Steel magnolias? Steel magnolias.

Tim Williams: yeah steel magnolias. So R.I.P. Dolly Parton. Still still still heartbroken over that one. Yeah,

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. Still fresh. Yeah.

Tim Williams: yeah. So but Shirley McLean rose to prominence with starring roles in Around the World in 80 Days in 56, Ask Any Girl in 59, The Apartment in 1960, Sweet Charity in 1969. Her other prominent film roles include The Turning Point in 77, Steel Magnolies, as we said, in 89, Postcards from The Edge in 1990, Bernie in 2011, and Noelle in 2019. James L. Brooks settled on Shirley McLean to play Aurora because he said, quote unquote, she was the only one who saw it as a comedy. And I could kind of see that how she kind of she played it straight, but you could tell she was leaning into the comedy a little bit more than I think some other actresses probably would have would have

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: gone with it, but but she's so good in it. Just

Ben Carpenter: yeah. She really understood not to play it as a comedy.

Tim Williams: Right, right.

Ben Carpenter: But if she understood it was a comedy, she sort of understood

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: how to how to let other characters sort of play o especially like Jeff Daniels and things like that. yeah, some. Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm. yeah, yeah, yeah. And Nicholson, of course. Yeah. Yeah. All right. And then Deborah Winger as Emma Greenway Horton. We talked about her on an Officer and a Gentleman episode. But we'll talk about her other films, including Urban Cowboy 1980, Legal Eagles in eighty-six, Black Widow in eighty seven, Betrayed in eighty-eight, The Sheltering Sky in nineteen ninety, Forget Paris in ninety-five, and Rachel Getting Married in two thousand eight. Fun fact here, real life mother and daughter duo, Janet Lee and Jamie Lee Curtis were considered for the roles of Aurora Greenway and Emma Horton. That just seems like too much of like a like a casting stunt, like just trying to, you know,

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Tim Williams: maybe like an appeal for that to like, come see the movie to see them together. And then it I that I don't think that would have worked for the movie. It would have taken away from what made it what it was. So Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I agree. Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: But yeah. But Deborah Winger, I've She's good in she's really good in this. I I was kinda sad when I read that she was battling cocaine addiction during the movie because she is kind of frantic, but I thought that was just the character, but I could see that probably adding to a little bit of the franticness

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Tim Williams: of it, but but yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Right. Yeah. She had I I I always I think liked her and it and things that I saw her in.

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: but she yeah, was one is one of those people who just wasn't in much, really, over over

Tim Williams: Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: the years. and maybe you know, maybe that's part of it. I think she's long since cleaned cleaned up her life. But yeah. Ma but

Tim Williams: yeah, for sure. yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: you know, she probably was difficult to work with during that time.

Tim Williams: Yeah, she was known to be difficult to work with. She didn't get a w she didn't get along with Richard Gere and an officer and a gentleman. I think she

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: she didn't get along with the director for Legal Eagles. Yeah, so it was it's kind of a pattern that we they kind of saw with her. So I think that's why she del

Ben Carpenter: Right.

Tim Williams: really didn't work as much as she she could have. So but

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: all right, and then Jack Nicholson is Garrett Breedlove. Breedlove is a last name, just makes me laugh. Anyway.

Ben Carpenter: Ha ha.

Tim Williams: Nicholson made his film debut in Roger Corman's The Cry Baby Killer, 1958. His other notable roles were in The Shining in 1980, Broadcast News in '87, Batman, we talked about him there in '89. Hoffa in '92. Mars Attacks in '96. gosh, The Departed in 2006, The Bucket List 2007. He's received Oscar nominations for Easy Rider in '69, Five Easy Pieces in '70, The Last Detail in '73. Chinatown in seventy four, Reds in eighty one, Pritz's Honor eighty five, Ironweed eighty seven, a few good men in ninety two, and about Schmidt in two thousand two. I mean, the man's a legend. The man's a legend. So

Ben Carpenter: Quite a career. Yeah. Wow, was The Departed twenty years ago now? I l I love that movie and and and he's so great in it and

Tim Williams: Yeah. The movie is so good. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: and I can't believe that's a twenty-year-old movie now. Wow.

Tim Williams: Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, two thousand six, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: yeah, I mean I've th I don't know that we have anybody really working today who has whatever it was that Jack Nicholson had in his prime. Like

Tim Williams: No.

Ben Carpenter: just everything he was in was it was just so fun to watch him on screen

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: and and yeah I I miss I I watching this again, I was just like wow like we just don't have that I can't

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: think of anybody today that I I just like seeing on screen like I I used to like watching Chuck Nicholson in the eighties and nineties.

Tim Williams: Yeah. The only one that would come close for me, and this is still kind of like even not at still not as current. I mean, he's still making movies, but Tom Hanks. I think Tom Hanks has been that guy

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Tim Williams: that's like consistent, like, you know,

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: the comedy, drama, you know, all that I think he does really well. Of course he's gotten better over the years, but that's still not what you would consider. You know, he still not wouldn't wouldn't consider like one of the He's not as big of a draw as he was back in the in like in the nineties and two thousands. But but yeah, like for today,

Ben Carpenter: Right.

Tim Williams: like I think they're chasing we're chasing franchises now or chasing, you know, different is different it's a different caliber. Which is funny to me, not say we're kinda go off on a little tangent here, but I like cause I'll see on my Instagram or, you know, my social media feeds 'cause I'm have a movie movie podcast. It's all on my algorithm. but like podcasts with like different actors that talk about you know, different things and like to hear actors that you don't see in a lot of things talking about what it means to be a real actor in like like did like their process, like talking to their process.

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: And sometimes I I we get so caught up in like the stardom of the movie star and like the glitz and the glamour of what we see and the, you know, we normally see on the on the social media instead of like the them talking about their craft. Like those really like meeting meaningful like they really are an artist. They're not just trying to be a movie star. Like they really take their acting seriously. Like somebody like, you know, Denzel Washington, Tom Hanks.

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: I would I would put DiCaprio in that that as well because I think he's I think

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: he's a really smart actor. I think he picks roles that are that are interesting. Like he doesn't just he's not in just anything. so but yeah. Side tangent, but it was but it was a good one. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Worthwhile. Worthwhile side trip.

Tim Williams: Yeah, yeah. So I I mentioned earlier about I couldn't see anybody else playing the role of Garrett Breedlove, but he was not the first choice. Do you know who the first choice was? Burt Reynolds was the first choice, but he turned it down to do Stroker Ace in nineteen eighty three. He regretted

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Tim Williams: the decision, saying there are no awards in Hollywood for being an idiot. So, but Harrison

Ben Carpenter: Well

Tim Williams: Ford and Paul Newman also turned down the role. So

Ben Carpenter: Wow, Harrison Ford would've been young to

Tim Williams: Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: sort of be romantically matched up with Shirley McLean. 'Cause he was in his like what, mid

Tim Williams: Yeah. Yeah, that's very young for him.

Ben Carpenter: or l mid to late thirties at the time and

Tim Williams: I mean that's that's right right before Temple of Doom, so

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Tim Williams: in his forties, maybe, like early forties, maybe.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I guess. 'Cause yeah, I think he was thirty five when they shot Star Wars, so yeah, he would have he would have been in his early forty. yeah, okay.

Tim Williams: Yeah. Yeah, so right yeah.

Ben Carpenter: yeah, I don't know. I mean he y I guess I mean, Harrison Ford falls into that same category as Jack Nicholson for sure. I mean as as just like unlimited charisma.

Tim Williams: Yep, yep, yep, you're right. Yeah, that's one we didn't forget about, yeah. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: and he is still working today, but he doesn't, you know, he's and he's still good, but he doesn't quite have that same presence on the screen, at least for me, that he did in the eighties and nineties, you know.

Tim Williams: No. No.

Ben Carpenter: so but anyway, yeah, th that I could Harrison Ford. Who who was the other one you said?

Tim Williams: Paul Newman.

Ben Carpenter: Paul Newman. Okay. Well yeah, that that could have been it would have been different. Not as not as funny. Yeah.

Tim Williams: Would have would have been interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely would have been a different role for him. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: 'Cause Jack Nicholson just nails so many lines and so many like just expressions on his face. So

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: funny, just the way he reacts to the to things Shirley McLean says and it's it's just so good. Yeah.

Tim Williams: Yeah. And I have to believe that 'cause they talked about the the character, you know, kind of I think when he accepted the role, I think they probably tailored the script a little bit more to his specific

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: delivery and his specific, you know, charisma. Like I think

Ben Carpenter: Right.

Tim Williams: I think ca I think being with it being James L. Brooks who who helped write adapt the screenplay and directing it, I think he probably probably tailored some of that to the The act, which is why they think they this feels like they fit so well in

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: the movie because I'm sure a lot of the script was probably tailored to them once they were actually in it. So yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Probably, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: fun fact here, McLean confirmed in an interview with USA Today that Nicholson improvised when he put his hand down her dress in the beach scene. Ha ha ha

Ben Carpenter: Well then I have to wonder if it actually got stuck.

Tim Williams: Right, right. Yeah, that was crazy. Crazy. But like good for her to like just keep the keep the sc keep the scene going. Like that's just, you know,

Ben Carpenter: Right.

Tim Williams: unless they did it and then they has like, okay, we'll use that, do it again. So, but yeah, crazy. All right. Then another great actor that d just in it's kind of he's almost like a cameo in this one, but Danny DeVito as Vernon, Dal Hart.

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: Of course he's known for one flew flew over the cuckoo's nest with Jack Nicholson in seventy-five. Romancing the Stone in 84, Jewel the Nile in 85, Ruthless People in 86, Throw Mama from the Train 87, Twins in 88, War of the Roses in '89. What an 80s he had. Batman Returns in 92, Jack the Bear in '93, Junior '94, Matilda '96. I'm gonna try to skip over some here. Jumanji the next level in twenty nineteen. A

Ben Carpenter: Ha ha ha.

Tim Williams: little more current, but yeah. due to his popularity from Taxi. He was actually billed before Jeff Daniels, who's one of the main characters, although DeVito has very little little very limited screen time, which I did think that was interesting. He's billed ahead of Jeff Daniels, but is a much smaller, smaller role.

Ben Carpenter: Hm. I didn't notice that, but yeah, it is a yeah, he's only in like three scenes, maybe.

Tim Williams: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: yeah, but he he's he's good. He's always good. And and

Tim Williams: Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: I I don't know if you watch Always Sunny. It's always sunny in Philadelphia. He's he's fantastic on that.

Tim Williams: I d I I don't I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna go back and watch it. I g it came up in conversation or came up in something a couple of weeks ago and I you know during the summer I try to like go back and watch shows that I don't get

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: a chance to watch or like I you know, I can binge something in the summer when there's not other stuff o on. I was like I'm looking for I was looking for a good comedy. I I think I'm gonna go back and start that from the beginning 'cause people talk about it all the time. So I will yeah, that's what I've heard.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. Well it's wild. It's it's a crazy show, but he's he's he's very good in it.

Tim Williams: Yeah. I mean Danny DeVito's awesome in everything he does. I mean, he's

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: he's great. So I do like the one of my favorite lines, I know we're not into favorite scenes, but when they're at the dinner, the birthday dinner, I think,

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: and he's leaning over towards her and she's like, you have to get to know me before you worship me, or something like that. Like, you know. I met her at church. I think she was God's gift to me. Yeah. He is he's great. He's just

Ben Carpenter: Way he's just like staring at her from across the room, like yeah.

Tim Williams: Yeah, he's just yeah. She's not there anymore. Yeah, but she's gonna come back eventually. Yeah. Yeah. Just great. Just great.

Ben Carpenter: He was great.

Tim Williams: All right, and then we got Jeff Daniels as Flap Horton. What a name. Flap, which

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: was his nickname. he made his film debut in Ragtime in eighty one, followed by this terms of endearment. He was then in Heartburn eighty six. he's been in a variety of genre films such as Arachnophobia in nineteen ninety, Gettysburg in ninety three, Speed in ninety-four, Dumb and Dumber in ninety four as well, Fly Away Home in ninety-six, Pleasantville in ninety eight, because of Wendixie in two thousand five, and on and on it goes. Most recently he was in The Martian in twenty fifteen. So but yeah, another like can be in any type of movie and be great

Ben Carpenter: Mm hmm.

Tim Williams: in it. So

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I didn't realize this was his this was his second film. That's

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: yeah. yeah, he was he was very good in this.

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: did you s has he really not been in a movie since twenty fifteen? Is that okay.

Tim Williams: No, I think he's I think he's been in some other I think he's done I think he's done more T V since then,

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Tim Williams: but yeah, he hasn't done as much very minor minor even his role in the Martian was pretty small, I think. So but but yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Right. Yeah.

Tim Williams: And then we've got the great John Lithgow as Sam Burns. He was also in All That Jazz in 79, Blue Out in 81. We covered him in Footloose in eighty-four, Harry and the Henderson's in eighty seven, a civil action in ninety-eight, Kinsey in two thousand four, bombshell in twenty nineteen, killers of the flower moon in twenty twenty-three, and most recently Conclave in twenty twenty-four. John Lithgow is once again just one of those actors that just anything he's in is just phenomenal.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Williams: But he was actually called

Ben Carpenter: And he's

Tim Williams: in

Ben Carpenter: he's Dumbledore in the new the Harry Potter that they're making on HBO. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: the the new hair powder series. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. he was actually called in to replace another actor who got fired. His part was filmed in three days while he was on break filming Footloose.

Ben Carpenter: No. Hm.

Tim Williams: So

Ben Carpenter: do do you know who the other actor was?

Tim Williams: They it was there's not definitive they th they have never disclosed like who it was, but there are some people that think it might have been Jeff Bridges or there was somebody else that was named, but it wasn't a name that I recognized, so

Ben Carpenter: Hm. It'd be funny if it was Eric Stoltz.

Tim Williams: Yeah. Recast again. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Ha.

Tim Williams: He wanted to he wanted to be more darker. I wanna be real. I wanted to be real, man. I wanna be real. Ooh

Ben Carpenter: Right.

Tim Williams: boy, that was a good one.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, if you know, you know.

Tim Williams: yeah. Yeah. and then I I did not have her down originally, but because I think she has a pretty significant role, Lisa Hart Carroll played Patsy, which was like Deborah Winger's best friend, you know.

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: she's only known for this movie, Midnight Cabaret in nineteen ninety and moving violations in eighty five. She didn't have a very big like movie career. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah, I looked her up too just 'cause she didn't look familiar to me and and I yeah, I was like, Okay, well that's why. She wasn't really in much else.

Tim Williams: Yeah. but I this caught my attention. The role was originally offered to Kim Basinger, who turned it down to appear in The Man Who Loved Women with Burt Reynolds, eighty three. So yeah. Can't get away from

Ben Carpenter: Hm bird again.

Tim Williams: and then I kind of sense this a little bit, even though it's not it's kind of alluded to, but in the novel, Flap and Patsy do have an affair, but in the movie it's not it's not known. So

Ben Carpenter: okay. Hm.

Tim Williams: Because I notice when like she goes to hug him when they're about to move the first time, like she kinda whispers in his ear, like, you know, take care of your family, and then he's like he starts to whisper in her or something, and then he sees like Aurora standing behind and he like kind of gets nervous or whatever. And it's

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: like I kinda like I like, Hmm, that was kinda interesting. And then there at the at the very end when she sits down next to him and he p kinda puts his head on her shoulder, I was like, Okay, I can kind of see like maybe there was something there, but but yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Mm. Yeah. No, I don't really pick up on that either, but now that you mention it that that makes sense.

Tim Williams: Yeah. And then we'll talk about it a little bit later, but there was a sequel to this movie

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: called Evening Star, which was based on the book that was the sequel to the original book. And in that one, the r of course, spoiler alert if you haven't seen the movie yet, but Deborah Winger's character dies at the end, so she's not in the sequel. so Patsy then kind of takes over that role and becomes like the pr the antagonist to Aurora in the in at least the movie version of Evening star. Not sure about the book.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I don't know that I ever saw that one. I know it wasn't supposed to be good, right. Yeah.

Tim Williams: It was not well received. Yeah, it was not well received at all. So

Ben Carpenter: No.

Tim Williams: All right, anybody else from the cast that you wanted to talk about or anybody I missed? I try to just kinda th those were kind of the main players and didn't think it was anybody else really to talk

Ben Carpenter: Mm yes.

Tim Williams: about.

Ben Carpenter: No, I think you covered it. yeah.

Tim Williams: I will say the two the two boys that played the Suns, like

Ben Carpenter: Right.

Tim Williams: they were very good and there was actually I read a couple of things where like they got a lot of high praise from the critics for their portrayals and then surprising they really didn't do much after like they didn't you know that didn't lead to any kind of big stardom for them after that. They really didn't have much of a career after after the movie, which was kinda sad 'cause I thought they both did really well for the scenes they were

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Tim Williams: in.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I looked I looked them up too and I if I remember correctly, one of them was in a lot. It was in a lot of movies, but just not ones that re y that peop that were hits or that people still talk about and yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: Mm. Nothing we yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. All right, well let's talk about iconic and favorite scenes. So this will be easier for you than for me, but when somebody says terms of endearment, what's the first scene that pops into your head? 'Cause you saw it so many times.

Ben Carpenter: right, yeah. I mean, like I said, I I had sort of forgotten a a lot of it, a lot of the scenes,

Tim Williams: Ha ha.

Ben Carpenter: but I guess the main thing that I could remember is dr driving on the beach. Garrett and Aurora driving

Tim Williams: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: on the beach. that's sort of an i iconic and and unique type of scene. and yeah, I mean, you know, I I did remember some things about the end and how

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: I mean, you know, it's it's a very emotionally impactful ending. Probably even as an eleven year old, I I, you know, it hit me. I

Tim Williams: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: was probably at the time, you know, thinking like, what if my mom died, you know, and and how I would feel

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: about that. But you know, now being older, it's it's almost like you I'm getting to that point where I relate more to

Tim Williams: Ha ha.

Ben Carpenter: like the mother daughter relationship and stuff. But

Tim Williams: Right.

Ben Carpenter: yeah, I mean I think I I think I remembered a little bit more of the comedy though, stuck

Tim Williams: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: with me over the years and and and I I remembered a lot of the stuff between Jack Nicholson and Shirley McLean and them talking at the fence and stuff like that. yeah, so

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: yeah. But you you didn't have really anything. I mean, since you don't since you fell asleep fifteen minutes in.

Tim Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Right.

Tim Williams: But like I said, like I think like when if somebody says terms of endearment, I th I d I think I've seen that clip of like them on the beach, him sitting on top of the convertible with you know, he's

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: steering with his feet and she's on the gas pedal or whatever. So like I've seen that in several like different mont like d I guess montages of either like Jack Nicholson's career or, you know, great movies of our lifetime, things of that nature. So that's kind of what I think about I would think like for I c like now, like think like after watching it now if someone says terms of endearment, that scene would pop my head, but also the you know, give her the shot, like that was a pretty intense,

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: you know, scene as well. So Yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm sure, yeah. Yeah. So but what about

Ben Carpenter: That's the Oscar clip scene. Like that I'm sure that's what they showed when they were. Yeah.

Tim Williams: favorite scenes? Do you have any any favorite scenes or scenes that stand out to you that you want to talk about?

Ben Carpenter: well, not to repeat myself, but yeah, I think all the all the stuff with Jack Nicholson is is just

Tim Williams: Nicholson, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: so charismatic and so fun to watch in this movie. Man, I just I I I this is another one. I say it a lot. Like I sit down to write to to take notes and then especially with this one probably, I just really got into it and just enjoyed it. And I was like, Well,

Tim Williams: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: you know, I'll remember the stuff that I want to talk about, but th

Tim Williams: Ha ha ha.

Ben Carpenter: you know, I don't always.

Tim Williams: Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: but yeah, it's Just the interactions. Th the this movie is a great example of just r coming up with good characters, giving them good conflicts,

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: interesting conflicts, and then just letting it happen, you know. so there's just so many different conversations and funny lines and

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: there's it's it's hard to pick a a favorite scene, but I I you know, the A lot of the stuff between Jack Nicholson and Shirley McLean is just so funny, so well written. The the prim

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: and proper woman that yeah. And and then the sort of crude

Tim Williams: Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: crude and very

Tim Williams: Aurora. Yeah. Mm, mm.

Ben Carpenter: You know, h just full of himself astronaut, so yeah.

Tim Williams: Yeah. yeah, I think I think

Ben Carpenter: But y I I'm interested like with you basically seeing it for the first time, what stood out to you?

Tim Williams: Yeah, yeah. though yeah, talking about the I I'm kinda like you, I think the scenes with Nicholson and and Aurora are are probably the good they're they're more leaning towards the comedy, so I enjoy those like their their lunch date, which I thought was pretty funny. and then Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Mm. He star he starts eating before she w before she even gets to the table. Yeah.

Tim Williams: Yeah, and then I I have this sound like, you know, You you need a drink. She's like, I it's it's too early. I was like, You need a lot of drinks. She's like to

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Tim Williams: break the ice node to kill the bug that you have up your, you know, which I thought was I I've that was one of the scenes I actually I remember literally laughing out loud at. That was like a really funny scene. Yeah, yeah. Which

Ben Carpenter: Perfect line delivery. Yeah.

Tim Williams: then takes back to the scene before that where she's at the birthday party and like everybody's all fawning over, and the doctor starts having his conversation, You're not you're not 60, you're 62. I've seen your birth certificate, like he's just totally ruining the mood.

Ben Carpenter: Okay.

Tim Williams: And she just walks out and like she goes by the window and there's all the guys looking out the window and like this lady is like she's got all these men fawning after her for some odd reason because she treats all of them like you know, like like not like garbage, but she like she doesn't she can tell she doesn't want to be with any of them, but she does like the attention they give her. And then she walks over to Nicholson's house and is like, Yeah, I wanna you know remember we talked you asked me to to lunch like three years ago and I was like Yeah, it's like I did

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, he c he clearly has no recollection of that.

Tim Williams: Not to say that I wouldn't, I just don't remember, you know.

Ben Carpenter: Right.

Tim Williams: and then but I have a great story about that that let me see I'll go down here. About that scene. pretty sure I put it down here. Yes. So in a speech to the American Film Institute, McLean revealed that during the scene in which Aurora goes to Garrett's front door to discuss going out to lunch, with every take, Nicholson did a different improvisation. Once he did it with a bathrobe on. Once he did it with a hooker, once he did it with nothing on, another time he did it as though he was drunk. That was the brilli she said that was the brilliance in working with Nicholson because you could never tell what he was gonna bring out in the other actors. Of course the bathrobe made it into the final cut. So I could just see

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: like her coming to the door and him coming out in some different, you know, way to play the scene or whatever. So but

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Williams: but that was kind of perfect, like, you know, he's kinda like half dressed, he's been reading a book, he's got his glasses on or whatever. It's like

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: Yeah, you did. Yeah, I think you yeah, I might have asked you that or whatever. So that was that was just great. Just good stuff. So

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: but I do like I mean, all the other scenes are like so dramatic. Like when when she discovers Flap, you know, at the college, you know, with the other

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: woman was like, you know, pretty pretty intense. and then her having that conversation when they moved again, just like, are you the reason that he has the job? You're like, you need to talk to Flap like that, you know. which I kinda felt like I know we kinda hadn't got there yet, but it's like the movie is moving at such a like a good pace, and then it feels like right at that point everything seems to kind of speed up. Like it just which I guess is kinda hard. I mean, it's already at two hours, and of course then they weren't making three hour movies like they like they were

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: in the fifties or the thirties and forties and like they're making now. But I felt like her illness was a little little rushed and

Ben Carpenter: A little rushed. Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: and didn't really some things I feel didn't get tied up as well as I would have liked. Doesn't take anything away from the movie in as a whole. I just it's my only little minor critique, you know, watching it for the first time today. I just felt like once it got to that point I felt like i it kind of moved a little faster than I kind of expected it to. but

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah, I mean if you think about it, if you go from the very first scene when

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: the girl who grows up to be Deborah Winger is just a baby

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: all the way to the end, you're talking about they're they're covering thirty years or so of

Tim Williams: Mm, yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: time in this movie. so it's I guess it's not too surprising that there are parts that are rushed, but yeah, I I get what get what you mean about the ending feeling a little bit it's a little bit It's it is quick. I what the can the cancer diagnosis, again, spoiler alert, I guess, but

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm. Right.

Ben Carpenter: really if you haven't I don't know that we need to do spoiler alerts for movies that have been out for forty

Tim Williams: No, no.

Ben Carpenter: three years, but the cancer diagnosis comes what, like fifteen, twenty minutes before the end of the movie? It's yeah.

Tim Williams: Pretty close. Yeah. It's not not Yeah. I mean, it has its moments, but I think the other thing too is like it didn't hit me. Like the death didn't hit me as hard as I think I wanted it to or I expected

Ben Carpenter: Mm.

Tim Williams: it to, just because I don't think we had enough of of her, you know, we didn't we didn't

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Tim Williams: see enough of kind of her dealing with it. We just was the di we saw everybody else's effect to it, but not as much as her, I don't think. So which yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Right. That's what I was about to say was it's it in this movie it's really not it you know, it's just not what the movie is about. It's not really about how she deals with it, it's more about

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm. Right.

Ben Carpenter: how it affects the other characters, so yeah.

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's definitely you know, it's definitely worth a rewatch. I'm sure I know I'll watch it again now that I've seen it. It's gonna be one that I'm gonna wanna watch again.

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: not as a feel good movie at all, but you know, when I wanna watch something that's gonna like, you know yeah, yeah. But when I wanna

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I mean it's got feel good parts, so yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: watch a good like a good drama comedy but but like that makes you feel something or like has good acting, it'll definitely be in that on that on that list for me. So

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. I mean I'm just a I'm a sucker for movies like this. I I just like movies that capture the really capture the messiness of life and just

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: how you know, it makes you feel better about it, you know. It makes you feel better

Tim Williams: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: about your own the twists and turns in your own life, watching

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: other watching characters deal with them in in good and bad ways. And yeah, so

Tim Williams: Yeah. I kept saying to myself I was watching, I like, they don't make movies like this anymore. And you know, and I it's

Ben Carpenter: Mm-mm.

Tim Williams: kinda sad because well, if they do, it's gonna be on a streamer and nobody's gonna really talk about it or they're gonna they're not gonna make it into a movie, they're gonna make it into like a nine episode series that's gonna drag on way too long. But but

Ben Carpenter: Mm. Yeah, yeah, you're right. I'm trying to think of anything close to this kind of movie that I've seen recently. what was the was it called Marriage Story or something with Adam Driver and Sc and Scarlet Johansson? That was a little bit you know, it was a kind

Tim Williams: yeah, yeah. Scarlett Johansson, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: of you know, it was it had funny moments and it was about the messiness of life and stuff and

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm. Right, right.

Ben Carpenter: so that was maybe something similar in that in the same vein. But yeah, you're right. They

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: just they really don't make movies to be fair, they didn't make movies like this back then either. You know? I mean that's why it won all the Oscars. Yeah.

Tim Williams: Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why that's why the produce the executives like, You don't want it let's re edit it again. Make it we get either make it a comedy or make it a drama. You can't do the both. And

Ben Carpenter: Mm.

Tim Williams: Brooks was like, No, we're gonna we're gonna do that. So All right, well let's hit a couple of little trivia things before we you got something else to say? I'm sorry, I'm gonna cut you off.

Ben Carpenter: I was just gonna ask, we didn't really talk about James L. Brooks and other things he had done.

Tim Williams: yeah. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: and he I I don't remember all of them, but I do remember I I liked a lot of other things that he directed. And of course he he was one of the people who started The Simpsons, so he

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: always has a place in my heart for that. So mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: yeah. yeah, he was this was his direct directorial debut, which was amazing. he was known for a writer and producer, I think, of like Taxi and a couple other TV shows in the late seventies, early eighties. I did not let's see if I can Put me on the spot. No, I'm just kidding. No, you did good.

Ben Carpenter: I didn't mean to put you on the spot.

Tim Williams: But yeah, but I should have. I thought I thought about it, but let's see. yeah. Yes. Yeah, I'll say

Ben Carpenter: I th did he direct As Good As It Gets? That was another one with Jack Nicholson that was yeah.

Tim Williams: writer and preacher known for broadcast news eighty seven, as good as it gets

Ben Carpenter: broadcast news was great too.

Tim Williams: in ninety seven. let's see, can I get Took me to one thing I didn't wanna where to see is filmography. Well that's probably too much. Yeah. Writer, producer. So let's go with just director. So

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Tim Williams: most recently he did a did a movie called Ella McKay, which I did watch on Hulu. I think he got a very limited theatric release and it was pretty decent. Spanglish, she directed in two thousand four, As Good As It Gets, I'll Do Anything in ninety four, broadcast news eighty seven, terms of endearment eighty three. but he's yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Mm. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, he has he's one of those who who didn't direct much, right? But but when

Tim Williams: No.

Ben Carpenter: he did, I mean, you know, I remember Spanglish being kind of okay. But

Tim Williams: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: you know, as good as it gets and broadcast news in terms of endearment on your resume, those are those are pretty strong.

Tim Williams: Yeah, tons of tons of TV writing. so he was a writer for Taxi, Lou Grant, Rhoda, Mary Tyler Morse show. So yeah, that's kind of where he cut his teeth was in

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: with T V writing. So but this was his his directorial debut. So again right here where I was gonna go in trivia. So he was the fourth director to win an Academy Award for his direct directorial debut. Previous winners were Dilbert Mann for Marty in 55, Jerome Robbins for West Side Story in 61, and Robert Redford for Ordinary People in 1980. At the end of the production to congratulate him for completing his first movie, Jelms O'Brooks received a book. Called Life in Hell cartoons drawn by Matt Groning.

Ben Carpenter: Mm.

Tim Williams: Brooks was so impressed that he asked Groning to create cartoon shorts for the Tracy Ullman show, which then led to The Simpsons.

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: the MP MPAA originally gave the film an R rating due to strong language. The rating was changed to PG on appeal. Which it was one of the few PG PG movies I heard the F word in as a kid. So

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. I I I think these days they they would be fine with it being R, you know? And it would probably just be an R R rated movie. They

Tim Williams: Mm. yeah. I mean, I don't know why they didn't want it to be because it is such a adult themed story, but right, right.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, it's right. It's not like a hey kids, come on, let's go see terms of endearment, you know.

Tim Williams: But also at back but I also at that time R rated movies did not do as well at the box office. Like it was that it

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: was a harder sell for for the studios. So So from October to December of twenty sixteen terms of endearment, the play went off Broadway. Molly Ringwald played Aurora, and Hannah Dunn, the daughter of Griffin Dunn, played Emma.

Ben Carpenter: Hm. I didn't did not know that. Did not know it

Tim Williams: Yep.

Ben Carpenter: was ever a play.

Tim Williams: Yep. Which I kinda felt like there were certain parts of like I could see this being a play. But it has that it's got that certain kind of like on Golden Pond, has that dialogue where it's like I said, it's very real. It doesn't

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: it's not you don't really need a lot of like big locations or set pieces necessarily for to tell the story. it could I think it could work as a stage production for sure. So

Ben Carpenter: Mm hmm. Yeah, a lot of sets though. I mean, unless they kind of change, move some things around, it'd be a lot of a lot of different sets.

Tim Williams: Or yeah, yeah. Yeah. They probably they probably cut a lot of I must say cut a lot. There probably some scenes they probably cut that were in the movie. They probably for the stage play they probably condensed some things or moved things, yeah. Mm-hmm. Right, right.

Ben Carpenter: Or or moved it to you know, and now it's in Aurora's house instead of yeah, yeah. Hm. Hm.

Tim Williams: All right, so Box Office Terms of Endearment was commercially successful at the box office on its opening weekend, which was Thanksgiving weekend of 1983. It grossed $3.4 million, ranking number two at the US box office until its second weekend when it grossed $3.1 million, ranking number one. So it made less the second weekend, but but went to number one instead of number two.

Ben Carpenter: Hm. Yeah. Hmm.

Tim Williams: three weekends later it arrived number one again with nine million, nine million being its wide release. For four weekends, it remained number one at the box office and it slipped to number two on its tenth weekend. On the film's 11th weekend, it arrived number one for the sixth and final time, grossing $3 million. It grossed $109 million in the United States and Canada for $165 million worldwide. It wasn't just critically acclaimed, it was also the second highest grossing film of the year behind a little movie some people might know called Return of the Jedi.

Ben Carpenter: What was th do you have what was third? I'm just curious, like what was what was this sandwiched

Tim Williams: for the year?

Ben Carpenter: between? Yeah.

Tim Williams: That's alright. No, that's what editing's for. That's why I don't do it live. That's why I don't do it

Ben Carpenter: I keep putting you on the spot this episode, I'm sorry.

Tim Williams: live. Alright, let's do nineteen eighty-three Part of the podcast where we Google.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, we need some we need just like some light background music is

Tim Williams: Yeah. I'll edit all this out.

Ben Carpenter: No, I know.

Tim Williams: Yearly, there we go.

Ben Carpenter: Let's see. I I found it. It's Flash Dance.

Tim Williams: Okay. yeah, that makes sense.

Ben Carpenter: was number three, followed by trading

Tim Williams: Yep.

Ben Carpenter: places and war games.

Tim Williams: Well now see when I pull it up here, it doesn't have terminalism endearment as number two.

Ben Carpenter: Hmm. This one does. I'm looking at I mean, Return of the Jedi was way out ahead. Like

Tim Williams: Number one. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: yeah. So it it made about three times as much as terms of endearment.

Tim Williams: it was under a different it was under a different like setting. So yes, so s Return of the Jedi was number one, Turbos of Endearment was number two. Still a big dip. So Star Wars Return of the Jedi made two hundred and fifty two million, terms of endearment a hundred and eight million. So they were still a hundred and fifty million under, but Flashdance

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: had ninety two million, trading places was number four at ninety million, war games was number five at seventy nine million. So

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tim Williams: Still not bad. So All right, well, now it's time take a look at how well this 80s flick holds up today. It's the rewatchability nostalgia meter. It's our way of measuring how enjoyable a movie is for repeat viewings, along with the waves and nostalgia it brings. Here's how it works. It's a one to ten scale. Any number between one and ten will do. Here are a few parameters to help you decide. At the bottom of the meter is a number one, meaning I saw it once and that was enough. In the middle is a five, meaning it's a good rewatch every couple of years. And at the top, a number 10, it's highly rewatchable and full of nostalgia. So Ben, where does terms of endearment rank for you on the re watchability and nostalgia meter?

Ben Carpenter: I would say d this is just for me personally. I would say it ranks about as high as anything can rank that's not a comedy or an action

Tim Williams: Ha ha ha.

Ben Carpenter: movie. Like the well, basically a drama. As high as a drama can can rank. Because

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: you know, dramas it's just more like well, you see you see once or twice and you kinda get it. you know, it it's not like, I can't wait for the big truck chase scene or or this line

Tim Williams: Right, right.

Ben Carpenter: is so funny. I mean it this does have funny lines in it. It is

Tim Williams: Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: it is you know, it is partially a comedy at least. But yeah, I mean I w I would I would give it a nine. And and I'm only I'm only docking it a one just because

Tim Williams: Okay, hey. That's really good.

Ben Carpenter: it's it is kind of a a rough a rough watch a little bit in as far as it's it's an emotional It it it hits ya. It hits ya in the fields as the kids say.

Tim Williams: Yeah, yeah. Yep. This one's this one's not gonna be great. It's not gonna rank very high for me only because the nostalgia factor's not there. It's not one that I

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: like I said, I don't have great memories of seeing it as a kid. Like I said, I think I saw it with my mom but fell asleep in. So that's the that's the nostalgia that it it brings me to. so I'm I'm gonna give it a standard five, which I think is it's a good rewatch every couple of years. If I'm ranking this as far as like, you know, the caliber of movie it is, it would be a

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: lot higher, be like an eight. or a nine, you know,

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: it's not quite Shawshank Redemption, A Few Good Men, you know, those type of, you know, that that

Ben Carpenter: Those are other good examples, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: I, you know, that I will constantly go to as like, give me your top five all time favorite movies. But those are also movies that I've seen over and over and over again. This might be one of those movies like the more I watch it, the more I appreciate and may move its way up some,

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: but but for right now, I'm I'm sticking with a five. And I think that's okay. And it's my podcast. What can

Ben Carpenter: Mm. It sure is. Hey.

Tim Williams: Yeah. Cry if you want to. No, I'm kidding. Yeah. All

Ben Carpenter: It's you, man. Yeah.

Tim Williams: right. Well, let us know where you think terms of endearment should rank on the rewatchability nostalgia meter. Send us an email, let us know on social media, or leave us a comment right here on YouTube. So well, Ben, I appreciate you joining me for this episode. This was a good one. I'm gl thanks for wanting to do this movie. It gave me the g

Ben Carpenter: absolutely.

Tim Williams: gave me the excuse to finally watch it. So and I do own it.

Ben Carpenter: I

Tim Williams: That was good. So

Ben Carpenter: yeah, okay. Well I'm I I didn't

Tim Williams: W worth which

Ben Carpenter: know you had never seen it before, so I'm I'm glad I'm glad you watched it. And glad you enjoyed it. Mm-hmm.

Tim Williams: Yeah. Yeah. yeah. So have to so I'll watch it again here in the next year or two, maybe.

Ben Carpenter: Great. Well we'll we'll we'll meet up again then and compare it see if see if your meter went up on it.

Tim Williams: Yeah, yeah, we'll Yeah, let's we'll do that. So All right, that's a wrap on another trip to the greatest decade of cinema. If we've sparked a memory or helped you rediscover a classic today, please head over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five star review. It truly helps the show reach more fans like you. To make sure you're always in the loop for our next deep dive, hit that follow up subscribe button, and if you want to help to keep the show running, consider becoming a partner at Buy MeACoffee.com. For more 80s goodness, our digital headquarters is always open at 80s flickflashback.com. And while you're there, check out our tea public store for original designs and movie-inspired merch that I have you looking like a true 80s icon. Thank you again, Ben, for joining. Thanks everybody for listening. For 80s Flick Flashback, I'm Tim Williams. Impatient boys sometimes miss dessert.