#106 - "The Natural" (1984) with Nicholas Pepin (from "Pop Culture Roulette" Podcast) & Ben Carpenter

Attendees: Ben Carpenter, Nicholas Pepin, Tim Williams

This transcript of the full, unedited episode recording was computer generated and might contain errors. 

Timothy Williams: In the early 1980s baseball films were rare with the most notable being the 1976 comedy the Bad News Bears. However, Barry Levinson's 1984 Oscar nominated Flick sparked a Resurgence leading to over 18 baseball themed films in the next decade.

Timothy Williams: On the surface. It appears as a traditional Sports biopic, but it reveals deeper almost artistic layers upon closer examination. It transcends mere athletic drama to become a quintessentially American Fable and a crowd-pleasing fairy tale. The story follows Roy Hobbs A Gifted baseball player who's career Is tragically derailed years later. He reappears as an aging outfielder for the fictional New York nights armed with this mystical bat Wonder Boy as Hobbes propels the underdog team towards Victory. He confronts his past and battles formidable challenges embodying the drama and spirit of America's beloved game in a narrative of redemption and myth. So grab some peanuts and Cracker Jack to snack on while Nicholas Pepin Ben Carpenter and I discuss the natural from 1984 on this episode of the 80s flick flashback podcast.

Timothy Williams: Hi, welcome in everybody. glad to have you on this episode of the 80s flick flashback podcast. We're talking about a movie that I'll say up front. I had not seen before watching it for the podcast. So it's kind of a rarity here. I've done a few in the past but it's been a while since I've watched one for the first time, but this is one that's been Highly recommended and glad to have two wonderful hosts with me to talk about the natural from 1984. Welcome back to the show Nicholas Pepin from pop culture roulette. How you doing, Nicholas?

nicholas pepin: All right. How about you?

Timothy Williams: I'm good, And because he had to suffer through jaws 3D. If I'm a good one this time, welcome back Ben Carpenter. How you doing?

Ben Carpenter: yes, I'm glad to be talking about a good movie this time.

Timothy Williams: Right, All right. let's Jump Right In so Nicholas, when did you see the natural for the very first time?

nicholas pepin: When I was in college, I couldn't remember if I borrowed it from you or from Keith because you both had equally impressive film libraries, but given what you just said,…

Timothy Williams: Yeah. Yeah,…

nicholas pepin: I now know that I borrowed it from Keith.

Ben Carpenter: think

Timothy Williams: and knowing Keith, this is a movie that Keith would own and probably watched on a regular basis. I believe that very true.

nicholas pepin: Yeah, yeah, so that would have been and it's not a movie that I watch a lot. So, I don't know…

Timothy Williams: Mm- Gotcha.

nicholas pepin: if I've seen it since then but I've definitely seen it before rewatching it for this.

Timothy Williams: what about you Ben just when you saw when you were younger.

Ben Carpenter: I was 11 when it came out in theaters. I don't remember seeing it in the theater, but I do remember watching it.

Timothy Williams: mmm

Ben Carpenter: over at my grandparents house at the time as my grandmother called it the home box office. She never referred to it as the abbreviated name which I don't think we didn't have HBO at home then but when I was at my grandparents house, I would sometimes just sit and…

Timothy Williams: mmm

Ben Carpenter: HBO would show the same movie. A seemingly more hours or more times per day as there were hours in the day, but they would just show it over and over and I probably watched it several times then on the home box office.

Timothy Williams: There you go. Very cool. Yeah, this is one that I remember so we had when I was younger and I remembered this one being pretty heavily advertised and I'm sure it was on and for whatever reason it was just not one that I gravitated towards and I don't know if it's because it seemed because it's a period piece so it's not set in the 30s 20s and 30s and I can't even say at that age. I was really that big of a baseball fan because At that time we lived in North Carolina. So there were no major league baseball teams close by that. I would follow and I really didn't know who the Braves were until he moved to Georgia, having TBS and being close to the brave. So

Timothy Williams: It wasn't something that I just kind of got gravitated towards but I watched the trailer a couple of times, getting ready before I watch the movie and was like, I remember those scenes from the trailer I remember those more than anything else. So it's definitely one that it was just a blind spot in my filmography where my library that I just haven't watched but I enjoyed it. I don't think it's out, spoiler alert. I don't think it's as great as people have kind of puffed it up to be. I mean, I think it's good, but it has some yeah,…

00:05:00

nicholas pepin: glaring things

Timothy Williams: yeah, it feels incomplete and I feel like there was a lot of stuff and me because we're used to movies being longer and telling more of a backstory and…

Ben Carpenter: right

Timothy Williams: I know there's a director's cut with this is only five minutes longer but it does tell more about him as a boy younger story I think in the director's cut but yeah.

Ben Carpenter: does it not tell a little bit more about the aftermath, of the incident. I think it gets into that a little bit more and

Timothy Williams: Yeah, yeah. I think it does too. Yeah. Yeah, I know the book and we'll talk a little bit about the difference between either one of you read the book.

Ben Carpenter: No. Yeah,…

nicholas pepin: I didn't even know there was a book until I was doing the research so

Timothy Williams: Right, right me either so usually I have Laramie on he's used the big book reader so he's read the books,…

Ben Carpenter: same here.

Timothy Williams: but he didn't jump out of this one. So obviously not one that he's read. But I know the movie is very different from the book and we'll talk about some of the differences there. But I know the book tells a lot more about his early life and especially the lady that spoiler if you haven't seen it yet. We're gonna a lot of it but he gets shot fairly early in the movie but there was actually a longer history between the two of them and the novel so it wasn't so kind of a random out of the blue occurrence like it feels the movie and…

Ben Carpenter: Okay.

Timothy Williams: that when it happened in the movie, I was like, we're starting this way. Okay, maybe this is why I didn't watch it when I was 10, it's would have been kind of a rough opening But ISO Nicholas,…

Ben Carpenter: right

Timothy Williams: you said you've seen it since watching it the first time you remember has it been a long time.

nicholas pepin: it's been a long time since I watched it and when I watched it again yesterday. There were most of it. I remember there were definitely parts from did I watch this movie?

nicholas pepin: But and there are things that I think I picked up now that I didn't pick up then. And when we get closer to those sections I'll get to that…

Timothy Williams: I'm sure yeah.

nicholas pepin: but yeah,…

Timothy Williams: Okay.

nicholas pepin: it's just you said, when he got shot like that it came out of the blue they had given us one brief sentence 10 minutes before. and…

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

nicholas pepin: so there was some Inconsistencies and some very like you can tell the difference in movie making from 84 to now.

Timothy Williams: For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

nicholas pepin: .

Timothy Williams: What about you Ben, but has it been a while for you?

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I had not seen it in a long time. I didn't really remember. I just remembered the basic just of the story and…

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

Ben Carpenter: very little of the details. So I watched it last weekend with one of my sons was home from college and he is a huge baseball fan and he had never seen it and…

Timothy Williams: Okay.

Ben Carpenter: I was like, all right. we're watching this together. So we sat down and…

Timothy Williams: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: he thought it was slow at first. he was kind of glancing at his phone, texting with people and then as it went on he's stopped doing so much of that and started. Enjoying it at the end. He said okay. That was good like he liked it.

Timothy Williams: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think it is kind of a slow starter. I mean it has a lot at the beginning to meet that's important. But I think the middle kind of drags like you have that beginning where him was a young kid and then you see him, strike out the whammer. Which I'm assuming is supposed to be somewhat like Babe Ruth.

Ben Carpenter: Babe Ruth, yeah.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, very very similar and then the knee get shot and then it's 16 years later. I'm like, okay, we're not gonna see any of his recovery. Nothing which of course makes it just supposed to make it more mysterious but There's a huge lag from that point until I'd say the next 20 or 30 minutes seems to really drag until it really kind of picks back up again, but

Timothy Williams: Any thoughts on that?

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

nicholas pepin: No, …

Timothy Williams: I wasn't really trying to get that into it,…

nicholas pepin: will say that. The one thing the in between when he was a child in his,…

Timothy Williams: but I was there so go for it.

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

nicholas pepin: before his father dies and when he's striking out who is clearly Babe Ruth. I mean, they made the actor even kind of look like Babe Ruth.

Timothy Williams: mmm

00:10:00

nicholas pepin: And then he gets shot and that time, they said he's 19. come on,

Ben Carpenter: yeah, 19 year old with crow's feet and

Timothy Williams: Right, right.

nicholas pepin: yeah, just you couldn't eat credit. I know that the movie technology wasn't there then but At the higher a kid hire a teenager and then bring in and then bring Paul Newman in.

Timothy Williams: Yeah and Glenn Close to looking at younger either as supposed to be night. There was supposed to be 19. I think in that scene.

nicholas pepin: Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: right

Timothy Williams: It's like okay, she Yeah.

nicholas pepin: In the unlikely event. They actually remade this movie. I think you would have three different men or three different people playing Roy Hobbs not

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

Ben Carpenter: I noticed that Robert Redford was doing in those early scenes though,…

nicholas pepin: yeah.

Ben Carpenter: he was walking on the train tracks like a kid would and stuff like that. it was a little bit comical to watch him.

Timothy Williams: Yeah. yeah.

Ben Carpenter: I think he was 48.

nicholas pepin: I am

Timothy Williams: 40 47 or…

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, yeah when and…

Timothy Williams: 48? Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: and he's trying to pretend he's a teenager.

Timothy Williams: I can appreciate that. They did wide shots. There wasn't anything close up and…

Ben Carpenter: right

Timothy Williams: even when they met at night, they're more like silhouette so they tried their best to not really reveal their age, but come on people going to see this movie. You was Robert Redford. I knew that he wasn't 19 and couldn't pass. 19 even…

nicholas pepin: I mean,…

Timothy Williams: then so

nicholas pepin: I've done a couple teen comedies with you…

Timothy Williams: yes.

nicholas pepin: where they've gotten some 20 25 year olds playing 16 17 year olds,…

Timothy Williams: Right, right.

nicholas pepin: but at least they almost pull it off. This one was.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, it was a stretch. I kind of on the other hand. I had a little bit of nostalgia watching a movie where they just sort of relied on the actor, walking on the train tracks and…

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

Ben Carpenter: other kind of ways of communicating that it This is a younger version of the character rather than the D aging CGI stuff that we have now, which I've never seen it, it's always just almost if it's really good.

Timothy Williams: Yeah. yeah,…

Ben Carpenter: It's almost convincing,

Timothy Williams: yeah. Even the best special effects have their flaws for sure.

Ben Carpenter: so, right

Timothy Williams: Alright, let's jump into storage in a pre-production since we're right in the middle of the story, So as we talked about it's based on the novel. There's no mouse. So Malcolm Khan and Robert being acquired the rights to Bernard malomalomuds 1952 novel The Natural in 1976. Filled dusenberry was the first to write the screenplay. However in October of 1981 Roger town a Columbia picture story editor and brother of Robert Town quit to produce and write the screenplay with being set to direct and con producing. In 1983 TriStar pictures acquired the rights the film adaptation, which was their first production Robert Redford was set to play the lead role in the movie, which was his first acting role in three years.

Timothy Williams: The producers of the film mentioned the DVD extras at the movie was not intended to be a literal adaptation of the novel instead. It was simply quote unquote based on the novel The malamud's daughter said in one of the DVD extras that her father had seen the film and that he said it legitimized him as a writer even though they took a lot of liberties with his book. So let's talk about some of the key differences between the novel and the film So the movie introduces some additional characters and subplots not found in the novel including Max Mercy a sports journalist and pop Fischer's niece Iris who becomes romantically involved with Roy, which I thought was interesting that she wasn't part of the book. I thought she's had not role but a significant role in the movie version.

Timothy Williams: In the novel Roy's romantic relationships and more complex and nuanced his relationship with mimo Paris for example is more dysfunctional and tragic compared to the more romanticized version in the movie.

Timothy Williams: The novel delves deeper into Roy's internal struggles and moral dilemmas providing more insight into his character the movie instead focuses more on the baseball action and romance simplifying voice character. and from what I was kind of read other articles. I didn't put it all on my notes, but I know a lot of things that I read about the novel was he wasn't a very sympathetic character he's not like they said the film version.

Timothy Williams: Really makes him as this kind of Superman, clean cut, to always does the right thing and the novel version he is not that at all he's a womanizer he doesn't treat people very nice. He's which gets to the ending. So the ending is the most significant difference in the novel Roy actually strikes out at the end of the final game symbolizing his failure to achieve his dreams and the movie however, Roy hits a game-winning home run giving the storyboard triumphant and Hollywood style conclusion, and they said that in the book it is kind of a downer that he strikes out which kind of he never achieved.

00:15:00

Timothy Williams: You know what he was set out to do but because his character was so flawed in the book. It was kind of like a That's what he gets because the way he lived his life. He doesn't deserve to hit the home run. so there's some people that for a lot of people prefer the movie over the book and there's some people that like the book because It could be more of a truer account or true or more realistic story than what the movie gives Any thoughts on that before move on?

Timothy Williams: Yeah. Yeah, I saw that a couple times.

Timothy Williams: No, no most…

Ben Carpenter: right

Timothy Williams: what I read about the book was like probably not one that I'm Gonna Wanna Take A. pick up and read in the summer so

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, it sounds like they basically turned it into a crowd r. I mean you said it's sort of inspired by the book,…

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

Ben Carpenter: but they wanted to get people into the theaters and wanted them to leave happy.

Timothy Williams: right

Timothy Williams: Yeah. Would it? Yeah it

Ben Carpenter: Right, we wouldn't be sitting here right now talking about it. Yeah.

Timothy Williams: Right, right. Exactly. I don't even know if that ending would work today. it would definitely be an independent, more of an indie type film and not a major Studio release Studio wouldn't take a gamble on that for sure. So it So the novel is actually somewhat based on the story of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Tables quest for the Holy Grail in the story. Rory is the protagonist whose name means king and he wields his bat Wonder Boy would he takes from an oak tree struck by lightning similar to Arthur pulling the sword from the stone. Pop Fischer. The coach is the Wounded fisher king. Although in this story. It's Roy who is wounded and cannot heal. The lady without Mercy is also present in the story and causes Hobbes his wound Roy rallies around his Knights of the Round Table to be the best in the land. The original malamon story has a tragic ending that better reflects the Arthur Tale.

Timothy Williams: So I thought I definitely see those. references even in the movie for sure

Ben Carpenter: mmm yeah, I think I've made those connections. Even when I was younger that it was sort of a King Arthur kind of thing.

Timothy Williams: Okay, yeah. Mm-

Ben Carpenter: It me that the bat sort of reminded me of Sword in the Stone and I think I picked up on that. I had it thought about that until you mentioned it. but it kind of rang a bell for me that kind of hit me even watching it as a kid.

Timothy Williams: That's okay. Yeah, I mean, so all right, so that's that one. So then the movie the screenwriter decided to take a different spin or…

nicholas pepin: No, I did read that several people were like,…

Timothy Williams: lean heavier into something else.

nicholas pepin: this is one of the rare instances…

Timothy Williams: So the storyline has been altered to make it more uplifting the characters and…

nicholas pepin: where the movies actually better than the book.

Timothy Williams: symbols in the movie are heavily influenced by the writings of Homer and…

nicholas pepin: So it didn't make me want to go out and read the book. Yeah.

Timothy Williams: Greek mythology. For instance. Roy Hobbs. The main character can be compared to do. Odysseus my Santa right as he is trying to find his way home Max Mercy is Vulcan the god of fire and forging as he can make or break a person's career in sports. Pop Fisher represents Zeus the king of the Gods. His uniform number is actually a number one the oak tree and lightning bolt like the Wonder Boy bat are symbols that represent him. The judge character is Hades the god of the underworld as he is always in the dark and…

nicholas pepin: but I mean it was one thing to do with the Bad News Bears…

Timothy Williams: is responsible for judging the Dead. memo Paris can be compared to Calypso a seed nymph Who had…

nicholas pepin: where you had Kind of a downer ending but it made sense for the movie.

Timothy Williams: who once had an affair with a Justice Odysseus and…

nicholas pepin: I think if you had made me invest over two hours into this movie and…

Timothy Williams: kept him from returning home Gus Sands is like Cyclops as he has one strange eye.

nicholas pepin: ended it with him striking out. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know…

Timothy Williams: Iris gains can be compared to Penelope wife of Odysseus and…

nicholas pepin: if this is one of those that would. I don't even know if we'd be talking about this movie right now.

Timothy Williams: Roy's true love from whom he was separated for 16 years while she raised their son. Lastly when Roy States his goal is for the people to say there goes Roy Hobbs. The best there ever was in the game. This is an example of hubris, which is the Greeks considered to be excessive pride in oneself and for which a person would often suffer turmoil. so

Ben Carpenter: Okay now that I did not pick up on.

Timothy Williams: yeah, right.

nicholas pepin: I didn't pick up on an either but that makes more sense to me. I see it.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, yeah.

00:20:00

nicholas pepin: I definitely saw The way things happen in the way, they unfolded it was definitely more. A fairy tale than it was,…

Timothy Williams: Mmm, yeah, yeah.

nicholas pepin: I picked up on that but I missed out on the Arthur thing altogether.

Timothy Williams: yeah, yeah, I did read one person's revisiting the movie and he was very critical of the movie. And his might mainly because crit the movie didn't know what it wanted to be it wanted to be this uplifting movie. But you really weren't sure which I can't understand it from the beginning. You're not sure what type of story is trying to tell is it a tragedy that he's trying to overcome. Is it a hero's journey, is it a thought mythological tale? So it kind of mixes all these things together, but it doesn't really have a clear cut story and I think that's why I think it kind of fell short for me because

Timothy Williams: I didn't care enough about Roy like I wanted to but because I think maybe because there wasn't enough of his backstory and to see how he recovered. It's just like he got shot and…

nicholas pepin: I feel stupid…

Timothy Williams: then nothing had he just pops back up and…

nicholas pepin: then because I didn't pick up on it.

Timothy Williams: even when he's going and telling his story to Glenn Close they even kind of brushed over that where you really didn't hear him give any details of the struggle he had so there was nothing to really Connect me emotionally with him as a character. Just he was just a middle-aged guy. Who was a rookie. he has a slump but everybody has a slump I felt the tragedy of him being shot. I was expecting that more and in the middle or towards the end of the movie instead of right out the gate and…

nicholas pepin: Yeah.

Timothy Williams: then because It almost gets kind of swept under the rug and everybody. So what happened he never explains he I'm like, I don't know why he wouldn't tell people that there was just those little kind of plot holes and gaps in the story really didn't help me.

nicholas pepin: Yeah, I feel like it's definitely is a product of its time. Because I feel like…

Timothy Williams: for sure. Yeah.

nicholas pepin: if you tried to make this movie now, I've already broached the idea of a remake, but if they would almost have to either do two movies or do a series. Because there's so much that gets left out that …

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

nicholas pepin: if you make this movie now, I think people would just pick it apart. Because there's just so many gaps,…

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

nicholas pepin: you…

Timothy Williams: Yeah.

nicholas pepin: and to do a two-hour movie the way they did there you have to clean up a lot of holes.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, now I'm saying that but I'm also saying I enjoyed it like it. It's still …

nicholas pepin: Yeah. yeah.

Timothy Williams: overall. It was a good movie. I think it fell short of what I was expecting because it's people talk about it being the best baseball movie of the 80s and it's one of the last ones I've covered.

nicholas pepin: mmm

Timothy Williams: I've done Field of Dreams but those are movies that I saw as a kid that I have a lot of nostalgia for I watched eight men out last year.

nicholas pepin: Yeah you.

Timothy Williams: We haven't covered in the podcast yet. And that's a really good one as well. So

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, it is.

nicholas pepin: I'd say I think you've done at least three eighties baseball movies that are way better than this one. So

Timothy Williams: When I did Bull Durham, too. So yeah, I've covered those would be like my top three 80s baseball movies for sure,…

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Timothy Williams: so

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, and it's almost like an impressionistic painting or…

Timothy Williams: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: something. It's just like Big Brush strokes, but no real detail but I see it compared a lot to Hoosiers which is a baseball movie.

Timothy Williams: Yes, yes. Basketball, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: But it's basketball but I, read a quote, somebody saying who's yours and the natural or the two best. Sports movies and…

Timothy Williams: All right.

Ben Carpenter: if anybody disagrees blah, But yeah, I do disagree Hoosiers on the other hand I think is I mean, I love Hoosiers and That's a much more emotionally engaging movie for me.

Timothy Williams: Yeah more compelling.

Ben Carpenter: Then the natural was yeah.

Timothy Williams: And that's when I need to rewatch because I haven't watched that one in a long time. But I remember really liking Hoosiers though when I saw that one.

nicholas pepin: I'll pretend I've seen it so I can join this conversation.

Timothy Williams: And put that on the list for next year I've yet to do a basket. I've done football movies and baseball movies. I haven't touched a basketball. there's not that there's a lot of basketball movies in the 80s, but Hoosiers is definitely the top of the list so that we'll have to get on that for next year. Maybe that'll be my March. is that prime time for basketball in March?

Ben Carpenter: that big. Yeah.

Timothy Williams: So All let's do a brief talk about Barry Levinson the director. Of course, he's the name that I recognized. I've seen several of those movies, but just in case you're not familiar with them after some success as a screenwriter notably the mail Brooks comedy silent movie in 1976 and high anxiety and 77 the Oscar nominated script. he wrote the Oscar nominated script

Timothy Williams: And justice for all the 1979 after that he began his career as a film director. His first directorial effort was Diner in 1982 for which he also wrote the script and earned him an Oscar nomination for best original screenplay. Diner was the first of four films set in the Baltimore of Levinson's youth the other three Were Ten Men and 87 a story of aluminum siding salesman in the 60s Star in Richard Dreyfuss and Dana DeVito The Immigrant family Saga Avalon in 1990 featuring Elijah Wood in one of his earliest screen appearances and Liberty Heights in 1999 his biggest hit both critically and financially was Rain Man in 88, which we've covered already starting Dustin Hoffman and Tom Cruise the film won four Academy Awards, including best director and best picture. He also directed the classic war comedy Good Morning Vietnam, maybe seven starring Robin Williams, and he later collaborative Williams on the fantasy film toys in 1992 and the political comedy Man of the Year in 2006, which I know Nicholas has a lot of love for I say

00:25:00

Timothy Williams: I thought we talked about that one before. Yeah.

nicholas pepin: Man of the Year I know I've seen it but I don't remember having feelings about a one way or…

Timothy Williams: I remember you said you were to the theater and…

nicholas pepin: other.

Timothy Williams: you were so disappointed that you didn't wait to see it on video Okay,…

nicholas pepin: You must have been talking to somebody else because

Timothy Williams: I will edit that out.

Ben Carpenter: he

Timothy Williams: He also directed The critically acclaimed historical crime drama Bugsy in 1991. What started Warren Beatty and was also nominated for 10 Academy Awards, so Very well.

Timothy Williams: Honored director, but I definitely know Rain Man and Good morning Vietnam or two movies I've seen. a million times and big fan of both of those movies Any of those you guys fans of or he was here when you think of the 80s as Barry Levinson a name that you would think of?

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, for sure you said good morning Vietnam. That was one of my favorite movies in the 80s and…

nicholas pepin: yeah.

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

Ben Carpenter: or at the time at least I haven't seen a…

Timothy Williams: Right, right.

Ben Carpenter: since then but

Ben Carpenter: yeah, yeah, I remembered going into this. I remembered, his name and a lot of the movies that he did and that I really did enjoy a lot of his work over the years so

Timothy Williams: What about your Nicholas?

nicholas pepin: Yeah, I mean, it's different. It's definitely a name. I know I like you guys. I love good morning Vietnam. There's a lot of other movies what I feel like he was involved with Men In Black somehow.

Timothy Williams: No, you're thinking a very yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, that's very sonnenfeld. Yeah.

nicholas pepin: Very Simon felt. Okay, then I okay, but yeah rain man, I've have enjoyed I'm usually looking through his list. I mean I've seen a lot of what he's done and some of it I can take or leave but he's definitely done a lot of really, quality stuff producing or directing.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, similar name. Yeah.

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

nicholas pepin: I mean obviously he's at least one best director. So

Timothy Williams: right Alright. let's jump into casting. There are a lot of people in this movie that I didn't realize during this movie until I started watching. It is like a few the popped up. I didn't even know that they were acting like we'll get to that towards the end. But of course, we'll start with the star Robert Redford is Roy Hobbs Redford's television career began in 1916, including an appearance on Alfred Hitchcock Presents in 1961 and the Twilight Zone 1962 his greatest Broadway success was as a stuffy newlywed husband and Neil Simon's Barefoot in the Park in m sorry 1963 Redford made his film debut in war hunt in 1962. He gained success as a leading man in film such as barefoot.

Timothy Williams: Park 67 Butch Cassie and the Sundance Kid in 69 Jeremiah Johnson and in the candidate in 72. He received a nomination for the Academy Award for best actor for his performance in the crime Caper the sting and 73. He continued to Star and film such as the way we were in 73 All the President's Men and 76 and the electric horseman in 1979. so I think that's probably another reason why this one didn't really appeal to me because Redford being much more of a 70s actor more so than an 80s actor, I guess for when I was a kid, maybe what it didn't really jump out at me but His 80s movies include Brubaker the natural as we talked about we're talking about now Out of Africa at 85. He also directed A River Runs Through It in 1992 and quiz show in 1995.

Timothy Williams: Anything else to add about Mr. Redford?

nicholas pepin: He's done a lot and it would be hard to cover him in just a couple minutes. So.

Timothy Williams: yeah. Yeah, I skipped over a lot of stuff for sure. but

Ben Carpenter: I did really like the last movie. I think I saw him in I'm looking at as IMDb right now trying to I can't remember the name of it. He was on it. There was almost no dialogue in it. He was just on a boat.

00:30:00

Timothy Williams: Is that all is lost I think 2013. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Yes. Yeah, yeah, which in some ways kind of reminded me of this or…

Timothy Williams: really?

Ben Carpenter: that this movie I think kind of reminded me of that a little bit and just the fact I mean obviously this has a lot of dialogue and stuff. but it had that same kind of Almost like it's a fable or a parable or something. That isn't maybe quite so literal that's…

Timothy Williams: Gotcha.

Timothy Williams: Gotcha. mmm

Ben Carpenter: what reminded me but of it.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, so the two areas of the film show Roy Hobbs at age 19 and age 35 or Redford was 47 at the time of filming. So he was too young and too old. I mean he was too old for both settings

nicholas pepin: Yeah, but at least at 35 I kind of bought that one.

Timothy Williams: Yeah. yeah.

nicholas pepin: I mean it was still yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah 47 year old Robert Redford it's not he's got a little something on us, I think genetically yeah, he

Timothy Williams: yeah. Yeah, he was in good shape and I know He actually looked and I think there are some people that said that he was on the few actors that actually looked like he could play ball like he looked like a ball player.

Timothy Williams: Which was good. All right moving down the list one of my favorite actors of all time Robert Duvall as Max Mercy. Duval made his acting debut portraying Boo Radley and To Kill a Mockingbird in 1962 other early roles included Captain Newman MD in 63 bullet and 68 True Grit and 69 Mash in 1970. Joe kid in 72. He won an Academy Award for best actor for his role in the film Tender Mercies in 83. His other Oscar nominated films included The Godfather in 72 Apocalypse Now in 79 the great Santini in 79 the Apostle 1997 a civil action in 98 the judge in 2014.

Timothy Williams: Other notable roles include I mean the list goes on and on Godfather Part 2 the conversation Network Days of Thunder falling down the paper The Scarlet Letter Sling Blade open range for Christmases Crazy Heart Get Low Jack Reacher and widows. And a partridge in a pear tree.

Ben Carpenter: If I mean, you named a lot of Classics there then I was a little bit surprised he agreed to do this movie…

Timothy Williams: Yeah. yeah.

Ben Carpenter: because he's not even really in it. That much and…

Timothy Williams: Yeah, it's a very small.

Ben Carpenter: is character. It doesn't really just has a few interactions with Roy and…

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

Ben Carpenter: yeah, so I was kind of surprised that he was interested in doing a part like that but He was good in the role.

Timothy Williams: Yeah. m- Yeah, he's definitely one of those actors when I see him in a movie. I automatically know the movie's gonna be better because he's in it like he adds such a

Timothy Williams: Gravitas to whatever characters playing even if it's small like this one like you he gives it as all and so Days of Thunder isn't a great movie, but he's great in it, but I don't like Days of Thunder.

Ben Carpenter: right

nicholas pepin: I can't think of anybody.

Timothy Williams: But

nicholas pepin: I've stopped my head that we've talked about in the past, but I know what said it generally speaking. He's not the problem with the movie. Right. Yeah,…

Timothy Williams: right, right.

nicholas pepin: he might be in bad movies, but generally speaking. He's not the reason.

Timothy Williams: Right. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Mm-hmm

Timothy Williams: Yeah, we had that discussion with Kevin Bacon and our episode about Footloose is he's made Some not so great movies, but it wasn't because of him. It's just the writing or the directing wasn't great. But he's always really good and even if he's a little over the top but that time about Kevin Bacon not Robert Duval. But yeah, is there a favorite of yours Robert Duvall movie? top your head

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I don't know like you said you name so many Classics there.

Timothy Williams: Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: It's hard to say. I

nicholas pepin: Yeah, it's nothing comes to mind. I'm trying to remember. he's been so much. It's hard to nail down

Timothy Williams: mmm

Timothy Williams: Yeah, a lot of He's like a supporting character. So it's not like he doesn't get the lead very often. But even as a supporting character, he's really good in the movie. So I will move along Glenn Close as Iris gains. She received a lot of Academy Award nominees and winners in this cast. She received eight Academy Award nominations for her roles in the world. According to Carpenter to The Big Chill 93 this movie The Natural and 84 Fatal Attraction 87 dangerously azons and 88 Albert knobs in 2011 the wife in 2017 and hillbilly LG in 2020. She is also starred in Jagged Edge at 85 or versatile Fortune.

00:35:00

Timothy Williams: The Hamlet and 90 The House of the spirits 93 the paper and 94 Mars Attacks 96 and Air Force 197. And of course, she also portrayed Cruella Deville in 101 Dalmatians in 96 and its SQL 102 Dalmatians in 2000 and what I love about both Glenn Close and Robert Duvall is their common they're good in comedies as well. I love rubber Duvall in Four Christmases and to know that they put Mars Attacks on Glenn close's, filmography like she needs to be known for Mars Attacks. So that's a crazy.

Ben Carpenter: she was the …

nicholas pepin: it is.

Ben Carpenter: I'm sorry. It was just she was the first lady in that when she married to Jack nicholasen, yeah.

Timothy Williams: I think so. It's been a long time since I've seen that one probably.

nicholas pepin: It's just nice to see people like Duvall and Glenn Close not take themselves. So seriously and…

Timothy Williams: Right, right. mmm

nicholas pepin: be willing to do a movie like Mars Attacks because I mean, I love Mars Attacks but it's so full of just ridiculous things, but people like Glenn Close and Jack Nicholas and make that movie more legitimate than it probably should have been

Timothy Williams: Yeah, they got a chance to just ham it up for the sake of being funny and not worried about trying to win Awards and…

nicholas pepin: right

Timothy Williams: stuff. So I think they need that kind of creative release sometimes just to do something, light-hearted and fun. So all right, then we'll move along to Kim Basinger as mimo Paris and a lot of these we talked about in other episodes as So we talked about Kim baser and our Batman episode because that's probably what she's the most known for but she began a career as a model and switch to acting in 1976. She appeared in several Television Productions, including a remake From Here to Eternity in 1979 before making her featured debut in the That's the hardest word to say in English single rural drama hard country in 1981 hailed as a sex symbol in the 80s and 90s. She first gained widespread attention for performance in the James Bond movie Never Say Never Again in 1983. She went on to receive a Golden Globe nomination for her role in the natural.

Timothy Williams: She was also in Batman in 18 1989 her other films include no mercy in 86 blind date and 87. My stepmother is an alien and 88 cool world in 92 The Real McCoy 93 Eight Mile and 2002 Grudge a match in 2013. I skipped over a lot there as well, but

nicholas pepin: Yeah, the ones you want an Oscar for LA Confidential.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, LA Confidential.

Ben Carpenter: yeah, I was thinking the same thing like that was great movie.

Timothy Williams: Miss that one So another one that's done serious and comedies, the Stepmother's an aliens still makes me laugh. I don't think I've ever seen that movie all the way through but the title always makes me laugh but

Timothy Williams: Dan Aykroyd All right moving right along Wilford Brimley as Pop Fischer. We talked about Wilford Brimley in our episode of the thing so I won't go over his filmography. Two extensively, but one thing I did mention there that I got ridiculed Force. I'll mention it here. He frequently appeared in commercials including a series of commercials for Quaker Oats a cane pain which became famous for repeating the slogan. It's the right thing to do. He also appeared in numerous television of advertisements for Liberty Medical a company specializing at home delivery of medical products, including dies testing supplies. He appeared in commercials for the American Diabetes Association and was the voiceover for Brian Foods television commercial campaign. because I think it was the way he said Dad BTS I diabetes.

nicholas pepin: diabetes

Timothy Williams: That's I know it's gonna mess it up. But yes. Diabetes but yeah. I love Wilfred Brimley anything s He's great. Cocoon of party one of his most well-known and he was on the TV show our house in the 80s as well.

Timothy Williams: And he will for Brimley. films come to mind that you guys are fans of

nicholas pepin: I mean just cocoon was the first one that came to mind for me as well.

Timothy Williams: mmm

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I guess maybe I'd seen him in Quaker Oats commercials before that.

Timothy Williams: Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: I don't know. But yeah, I think that was when I first Sort of remember seeing him in a film.

Timothy Williams: And then probably the biggest name with the smallest amount of time on screen Barber Hershey as Harriet bird. The Versatile actress was first discovered by talent agent when she was attending Hollywood High School and she began working in television. She made movies in the 80s such as the stuntman The Entity The Right Stuff Hannah and Her Sisters. She was in Hoosiers. We talked about already Ten Men. Shy people a world apart and beaches with Bette Midler 1988, which we've covered on the podcast as well. But yeah. He'll always thought about she's the person that shoots Roy Hobbs early in the film. And that's really about all she does in the movie. She sits on a train and…

00:40:00

Ben Carpenter: 

Timothy Williams: looks at him and then five minutes later She shoots him when I saw her name in the credits.

Ben Carpenter: right

Timothy Williams: I expect her to be in the movie more, but she really wasn't.

Ben Carpenter: With the helpful little foreshadowing from Robert Duvall reading the newspaper.

Timothy Williams: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Somebody's going around shooting athletes. Wonder if that's gonna be important in about five minutes. Yeah.

Timothy Williams: Right, right. At least there was a payoff to that line. So.

Ben Carpenter: right Yeah, had she done much before this because again, it was a pretty small part and…

Timothy Williams: Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: she wasn't in it for very long.

Timothy Williams: so the ones here the stuntman and 80 The Entity and 82 probably lesser known she had done the right stuff in 83 so that she's probably coming off of that being a pretty big movie in 83

Ben Carpenter: okay.

nicholas pepin: My guess is that when you put Redford and Barry Levinson, you probably had a lot of these people just showing up and…

Timothy Williams: Yeah wanting to work with them. Yeah.

nicholas pepin: being having their name associated with that.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, I was thinking about that. When you mentioned Ben about why Robert Duvall wanted to be in this movie being such a small part but to work with Redford, you…

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. Like you said,…

Timothy Williams: I think was probably something he wanted to do for sure.

Ben Carpenter: it was the first movie Redford and made in three years.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, yes,…

Ben Carpenter: So people aren't getting a lot of chances to work with Redford back…

Timothy Williams: they were expecting to big. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: then I guess so. Yeah. Good point.

Timothy Williams: All right, so I got a few more here and then we'll be done. Robert prosky as the judge he became a well known supporting actor in the 80s with his roles and thief and 81 Christine and 83 and Broadcast News 87. He's most notable movies include Gremlins to the new batch in 1990 Hoffa 92 Mrs. Doubtfire in 9 Last Action Hero Rudy in 93 Miracle on 34th Street remake in 1994 Dead Man Walking In 95 and mad city in 1997 his most notable television role with Sergeant Stan jablonski on the TV police drama Hill Street Blues. so he was definitely someone that I recognized.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I couldn't have named any of those other things he was in but he's one of those guys he's like, yeah, I know I've seen him before all

Timothy Williams: Yeah as Nicholas and I have only many times he's that guy at this movie. Hey, there's that guy like I could I mean even when I saw him today,…

Ben Carpenter: Yep.

nicholas pepin: Yep.

Timothy Williams: I would not have told you his name was Robert prosky and Hopefully that's never a name on a game show that I'll have to remember for the $20,000 question because I will never get it right but even though I've mentioned him on. episodes of the podcast I'm sure

Timothy Williams: alright, so then we've got Joe Don Baker as the whammer. He got himself noticed playing Steve McQueen's younger brother and Junior Bonner and 72 then scored the lead role in the unexpected. Hit Walking Tall in 1973. His next few films were rather forgettable until he landed a role of police detective Earl each side. To Kill a cop in 1978 which led to reprising the same character in The short-lived TV series. He also adapted to take no comedy roles as well as picking up plenty of work playing lawmen military men and politicians and films like Fletch in 85 The Living Daylights 87. Once again, Mars Attacks in 96 and his intelligence operative Jack Wade and 007 films Tomorrow Never Dies and GoldenEye in the 90s. Yep. Good old Joe Don Baker.

nicholas pepin: Yes, he's another one of those kind of that guys stood on Baker.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, when he showed up on the movie I don't remember his name showing in the credits or I missed it when it came up. But what was looking I'm like I know who this person is. I just could not think of his name for anything and I was getting him mixed up with Fred Thompson who the senator the Has been especially more so in the 90s or…

nicholas pepin: Okay, yeah. Yeah.

Timothy Williams: late 80s, but I was like that's not him. it's somebody else and then when I saw with Joe Don Baker, I was like, yeah from Fletch. it was the policeman or the police chief, I think. yeah, so yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Right, right. Hey you and…

nicholas pepin: I don't.

Ben Carpenter: Tommy Lasorda. I hate Tommy look sorta.

nicholas pepin: I don't know what the rights to using the name Babe Ruth would have been in 1985 86 84.

Timothy Williams: For yeah, 84. Yeah.

nicholas pepin: But they might as well just call them Babe Ruth instead of the whammer I mean other effect.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: That's what I was about to say is that it was confusing to have a fictional New York team,…

Timothy Williams: mmm Right,…

Ben Carpenter: but then they're playing real teams. Yeah.

Timothy Williams: right and I even thought I were the Yankees ever the knights? I don't remember that any kind of baseball history I've ever ever looked at.

00:45:00

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. Like I said, my son is super into baseball. He's a walking encyclopedia and I had to ask him.

Timothy Williams: right

Ben Carpenter: I was like was there ever a team in New York called the night. He was like no, so.

Timothy Williams: right very interesting and then we've got Darren McGavin as Gus Sands who was actually uncredited in his role. We'll talk about that here in a second. but Gavin portrayed the Title Character Mickey Spillane's Mike Hammer from 1958 1959 started Riverboat in 59 to 61 and check The Night Stalker and 74 to 75. This film credits include return in 76 airport 77 and 77 A Christmas Story at 83 of course is most famous for And Billy Madison in 1995, so he'll always be the dad and Christmas Story no matter what he's in.

nicholas pepin: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Timothy Williams: while he had a major supporting role as the bookmaker Gus Sands, he received no credit in the recent retrospective documentary on the special edition DVD of the movie Robert prosky who played the judge claim McGavin was cast late in the picture when having received a lesser billing than the other stars thus McGavin chose to go uncredited prosky noted that Gavin wound up drawing more attention to himself as a result. So by him saying, he probably did interview Sam was on credited or mentioned it enough to where they got more credit by being uncredited. But thought that was interesting. He wasn't credited when I saw that earlier before I was trying not to do any research before I watched the movie, but I was looking at a few things before it started and I noticed that he was uncredited and kind of saw that story. I thought I really small part but he had a pretty significant role in the movie. So

nicholas pepin: Yeah, he was in the movie more than Glenn Close and…

Timothy Williams: Yeah. Right,…

nicholas pepin: Glenn Close got up and going close got an Oscar nomination. So

Timothy Williams: right exactly exactly.

Timothy Williams: All right, and then the one person that I did not expect to see in this movie was Michael Madsen as Bartholomew bump Bailey when he came on the screen. he was acting in 1984. It's like

nicholas pepin: And also apparently he always looked that way.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I was surprised too.

Timothy Williams: right right like you did. Yeah. it's like he

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, he looked in Reservoir Dogs and…

Timothy Williams: Yeah. 92 Yeah,…

Ben Carpenter: that was eight years later I guess.

Timothy Williams: it was looked yeah.

nicholas pepin: and so

Timothy Williams: Right, right. So yeah, he's done frequent collaborations with Quentin Tarantino Reservoir Dogs in 92 Kill Bill volume 2 in 2004 in the hateful eight in 2015 as well as Once Upon a Time in Hollywood in 2019. He's also known for films such as the doors in 91 Thelma and Louise in Free Willy in 93 species in 95 Donnie Brosco in 97 Die Another Day in 2002 and Sin City in 2005. But yeah.

Timothy Williams: And once again, it's a movie. But did anybody else expect them to die from running into the board and I thought it was gonna get injured. I didn't expect them to die. that was a little shocking for me in the movie was the only one

nicholas pepin: No, that was one of my notes. I was when they ran through the fence. I was like, that's the injury that's gonna put Routine and…

Timothy Williams: Roy the game,…

Ben Carpenter: right

Timothy Williams: yeah. Yeah.

nicholas pepin: then they're like and he died.

Ben Carpenter: I guess it was 1939 or whatever,

Timothy Williams: So yeah.

nicholas pepin: and then they spread his ashes get over the stadium with a flyby and…

Timothy Williams: Mm- No, no.

nicholas pepin: you're like Wait,…

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, that doesn't.

nicholas pepin: what?

Ben Carpenter: That doesn't seem very sanit. I don't think I want anybody sprinkled on to me from above.

nicholas pepin: Yeah, I mean a lot of that made no sense. But yeah, it was like he ran through the fence.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

nicholas pepin: And then they're like any died. What?

Timothy Williams: It's like I want a little footnote and…

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Timothy Williams: this is why we have padding on in stadiums now But yeah, I mean. I think they said it a few minutes later. they made a comment about he hit his head or the way he hit was what caused them to die or whatever but Yeah, that was a little stocking.

Ben Carpenter: when it happened it didn't look like right.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, it didn't look that bad. Yeah. We'd seen enough cartoons the 80s to know that even coyote can run through a wall and still survive. So surely the output would be okay,…

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, and…

Timothy Williams: but it didn't. It right.

Ben Carpenter: the Outfield wall didn't even have a fake tunnel painted on it.

Timothy Williams: All right. So a couple of cameos a director Barry Levinson did the uncredited voice of the knights radio play by play according to Levinson. He had intended to have a professional broadcaster do the role but didn't have proper time during post-production to find someone for the part. So he ended up doing it himself, which I thought was a cool little nod there he's decent. And then the piano player at the party where Roy Hobbs becomes ill and had to be taken to the hospital was Randy Newman the composer of the film's music now most people will talk about the soundtrack of this movie being what said you was one of the highlights of the movie and I will say it's beautifully shot. it's a beautiful looking movie and…

00:50:00

Ben Carpenter: Mm- right

Timothy Williams: the soundtrack is phenomenal. So I will give it that does elevated. I think lot even with the story kind of lets us down. I think the soundtrack and the cinematography really elevated

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, a couple things about the music one. I didn't realize it was Randy Newman until I watched it this time and…

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

Ben Carpenter: also the night before I happened to watch an episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. That ended with the natural they used the natural music…

Timothy Williams: wow.

Ben Carpenter: because they go out and they play baseball and they musically did a parody of the end of the natural and…

Timothy Williams: Okay, of course. Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: and then it was totally coincidental though that I watched it the night before.

Ben Carpenter: But yeah, that music is I told my son I was like you'll recognize the music,…

Timothy Williams: Yeah, they've used it a lot in different Opera.

Ben Carpenter: you yeah.

Timothy Williams: It's like we know that's what's playing as like,…

nicholas pepin: Yeah.

Timothy Williams: I've heard this. I'm sure any kind of sports Montage. There are kind of a highlights thing. They've done over the years.

Ben Carpenter: right

Timothy Williams: I'm sure that I've heard that and didn't know that was from the natural. But yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, Randy Newman is still raking in the royalties checks if is he still alive he is. Yeah.

Timothy Williams: Think so. Yeah.

nicholas pepin: Yeah, I mean he's doing a lot of the Pixar stuff, but he's still Mr. Wayne Oscars every couple years. Yeah.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, you're throwing original song every now and then to get him a few more bucks a few more Awards. But Multi-talented that's for sure.

nicholas pepin: He really hates short people.

Timothy Williams: All let's talk about favorite scenes. I think we can all agree. The most iconic scene is the final home run busting the lights at the stadium which I thought this can't be safe with all the

nicholas pepin: Yeah.

nicholas pepin: it'll work.

Ben Carpenter: and they had them wired all together so that when one broke they all just started showering Sparks on everyone.

Timothy Williams: Right, right.

nicholas pepin: In a world where you go yourself running through the Outfield wall. I mean, yeah, the lights do seem quite questionable.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, yeah.

nicholas pepin: I mean if that's also so symptoms of done it.

Timothy Williams: Yes, yeah.

nicholas pepin: I mean you name it the Always Sunny in Philadelphia I mean, I think that moment is probably what keeps the natural in the conversation. Because it's such an iconic like,…

Timothy Williams: mmm Yeah.

nicholas pepin: bottom of the ninth, you're down by a run. You need you're down two strikes and…

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

nicholas pepin: I mean, it's why the Kurt Gibson home run from the Dodgers World Series in the eighties. I mean Kirk Gibson is,…

Timothy Williams: Yeah.

nicholas pepin: almost dead and he hits a home run to win the World Series, the same I mean,…

Timothy Williams: mmm

nicholas pepin: obviously this was gonna win the World Series there's just to get in the playoffs and we have no idea what happened after

Timothy Williams: right surely that was his last game. He was bleeding.

nicholas pepin: Yeah,

Timothy Williams: Which I was like and I was like, once again we've seen too many newer movies. I was expecting him to cross home plate and then just die this is the end of the story like he hit his home run.

Ben Carpenter: right

Timothy Williams: He saved the pop from losing the team or losing his job or whatever the whole black male thing that the judge had him on. He would cross home pate and just collapse and that would be his legacy that he won and instead we get a 30 second shot of him throwing the ball with the sun. I guess a few months later that he retired from baseball. but

nicholas pepin: 

Ben Carpenter: I think another example of something without that ending we wouldn't be sitting here talking about this movie like the movie was …

Timothy Williams: for sure.

Ben Carpenter: I was interested. It was pretty good up…

Timothy Williams: 

Ben Carpenter: until that point, but I really think the reason that people loved it at the time and walked out of theater feeling great and telling other people they had to go see it was basically just because of that the last five minutes and…

Timothy Williams: That and yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: just ending on that high of that I talked I said Hoosiers had a lot more kind of hit me in the fields as the kids say these days more…

Timothy Williams: Mm- Yeah. yeah.

Ben Carpenter: but the only time the natural really did that is at the end,…

Timothy Williams: Yeah, I agree with that.

Ben Carpenter: .

Timothy Williams: And I was gonna say credit to Barry Levinson that he crafted that ending. So editing and…

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Timothy Williams: just it's put together so I said I was kind of like your son. a couple times I was trying to keep myself from picking up my phone or doing other things like no I got to watch this movie. But once I got to that part I was dialed in I didn't want to miss anything even though I knew what was gonna happen. I've seen that final shot, million times before but just to see how he built it up it was well Very well done.

00:55:00

nicholas pepin: One of the things that I had written down was the scene earlier in the movie where he hits a home run and he breaks the clock.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, yeah.

nicholas pepin: So part of me was wondering this time Having two of those all very similar moments in the movie. Does it kind of take away a little bit from the end or just I mean because I had completely forgot in the rewatch that he had broken the clock because I remember the end when the lights were shattered and…

Timothy Williams: right right

nicholas pepin: so I don't know if maybe because the lights were shattered. In the electric explosions and the Browning the bases like it was such a bigger moment.

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

nicholas pepin: You kind of forget that he had already done a big breaking of stuff.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, I think it for a first time watch worse on you the big one at the end when he hit the clock think of it from a first time Watcher back in 84. I think it kind of elevated it.

nicholas pepin: Okay.

Timothy Williams: It's like the clock was big but for him to hit the lights and the explosion lights was almost bigger it was like he didn't just hit the home run like he hit it further and harder than even when he broke the clock. So that's kind of way out. I interpreted it.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I think maybe the clock scene is in there just to sort of establish this is something this guy can do like he can hit it way out,…

Timothy Williams: Right, right. Mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: and he can break things in the process.

Timothy Williams: I do like the scene after he's been in the hospital after he's trying to recover and he's on the field and Max Mercy's there trying to take pictures and he hits the ball right where Max is and you got some serious actress accuracy…

Ben Carpenter: yeah.

Timothy Williams: if you can, because he hits it a couple of times, right at him which I thought was a little scene that he knew exactly where to put the ball but Yeah, the baseball scenes are probably some of my favorite I love good action scenes and a sports movie, the actual gameplay.

Timothy Williams: but Them being so bad at the beginning. I was like, come on guys. I mean, the team they were so terrible and it's funny in movies like, major league but this time this is professional ball players. you would think they'd be a little bit better than they wouldn't making those kind of mistakes. But I know it's all part of the story and it is more of a fable,…

nicholas pepin: it's

Timothy Williams: but that bothered me just a little bit watching it.

Ben Carpenter: Right and…

Ben Carpenter: and all they needed was Roy Hobbs to come along and…

Timothy Williams: Right, right. Yeah, you never see him teaching them or…

Ben Carpenter: suddenly they're great players. Yeah. Yeah that was right

Timothy Williams: giving them a pep talk. No. I did like the one guy that keeps coming into him. sick losing is a disease like syphilis or different things he said or whatever and Roy finally walks out. I was like good, please walk out cuz I need to hear this guy's speech again. do they really have to hear this speech after every loss like that was that was pretty crazy. Yeah, you're gonna sit for this talk one more time.

Ben Carpenter: That was their punishment for losing.

Timothy Williams: Who is this guy? is it like they had Tony Robbins speakers back in the 20s9, Not very good ones yet.

Ben Carpenter: Not very good one apparently.

nicholas pepin: I didn't know the sports psychology was a thing back in 1939.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

nicholas pepin: But yeah. I had one of the iconic scenes and I think mainly because again it's one that's been parodied so much is him carving the bat and…

Timothy Williams: Yeah.

nicholas pepin: and then writing Wonder Boy in it.

Timothy Williams: Yeah. What is The Simpsons not parody?

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

nicholas pepin: Yeah, because Homer did it.

Timothy Williams: Let me come on.

Timothy Williams: They thought they won't that the period themselves at this…

nicholas pepin: I mean at this point, I mean what if they I mean

Timothy Williams: because they buried everything else which they probably have. I haven't seen it…

nicholas pepin: but they probably have

Timothy Williams: since this episode and many many years but

nicholas pepin: Hi, I still watch every one of them and then I also had the wmer scene the striking out the wammer like that is kind of boring as the early part of the movie that was kind of like,…

Timothy Williams: Yeah.

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

nicholas pepin: all right. Yeah kind of edgy your seat.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, I love the build up too.

nicholas pepin: He got one he got to like,…

Timothy Williams: He's got something on his hands,…

nicholas pepin: is

Timothy Williams: he can't be thrown at that fast. And then the last week he takes his jacket off and takes his hat off. Okay. I'm really gonna hit it this time. It's like and you're over at that point. He's gonna get the last one by you And I like when the max Mercy backs up, he's like why you back it up. He's like he could be wild. I don't know That was good. You got any other iconic scenes been or did Nicholas take them all I think he hit the big ones for sure.

01:00:00

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I think we covered the big ones. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of scenes in it that have been parodied and watching a movie like that with my kids. it's kind of cool to think about okay, they're figuring out now that this is…

Timothy Williams: Where this came from?

Ben Carpenter: where it came from. This is where that episode of whatever that they saw,…

Timothy Williams: Yeah, right. Yeah, I understand that reference now.

Ben Carpenter: yeah.

Timothy Williams: Yeah. Right any favorite scenes? You guys want to talk about?

nicholas pepin: I think I've covered everything. I mean we've got. I…

Timothy Williams: Hold off on that.

nicholas pepin: the only other thing on my list is not a favorite scene, so we'll Get old off on that second.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I think I'm good, too.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, I think yeah, the iconic scenes are good. I mean, the only other iconic scene. I think it's not as iconic as the other ones. But when Glenn Close stands up on the stands when he's going to a slump,…

Ben Carpenter: 

Timothy Williams: that was pretty cool, but it's again not as impactful as I wanted it to be I wanted it it in the fields. I didn't really get that in that scene as much as I really wanted to but once again going back to 1984. I'm sure though it probably hit those things but we've seen so many other movies of this type that of course are made because this one was such a big hit so it doesn't have the same impact seeing it now,…

nicholas pepin: Yeah.

Timothy Williams: I'm sure.

Timothy Williams: Right, right. Yeah.

nicholas pepin: and quite honestly by that point you've almost forgot that Glenn Close is even in the movie the only reason you remember is…

Timothy Williams: Yeah.

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

nicholas pepin: because you're like, that's Glenn Close if it had just been a random actress I don't know if that would have had the impact that it did…

Timothy Williams: Yeah. Yeah,…

nicholas pepin: because you'd be like wait,…

Timothy Williams: and then the whole thing with the sun being Roy's I mean we saw that amount coming a mile away.

nicholas pepin: who is she again?

Timothy Williams: I mean that wasn't any big twist ending for anybody. I'm sure.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, you just kind of had to do the math.

Timothy Williams: Yeah.

nicholas pepin: Yeah. my son and…

Timothy Williams: why else would right

nicholas pepin: then …

Ben Carpenter: When did we last each other 16 years ago?

nicholas pepin: she doesn't want to talk about it here yeah because it's clearly his

Ben Carpenter: I have a son who's on 15 a and three months,

Timothy Williams: right Let's jump into some scenes and trivia. Maybe make us think of some other scenes we talk about. Boston Red Sox great Ted Williams single goal while playing baseball was for people to say there goes the greatest hitter who ever lived a sentiment echoed by Roy Hobbs in the movie like Williams Hobbes wears number nine on his uniform and Williams and Hobbes both hit home runs and their last career at bats Hobbes was also an outfielder as Williams was according to Roger Engel of the New Yorker Redford modeled his swing on williams' and added that Redford played. So authentically you might even want to sign him up for your team. So thought that was pretty interesting

Ben Carpenter: That's another weird coincidence. My son one I've been talking about he's in Louisville today visiting my other son…

Timothy Williams: right

Ben Carpenter: who is up there and they went to the Louisville Slugger Museum.

Timothy Williams: nice.

Ben Carpenter: And he sent me a picture of a Ted williams' display that's in the Louisville. Slugger Museum up there, so I didn't realize that that was modeled on him. So

Timothy Williams: very cool

Timothy Williams: mmm Yeah, that was cool. there were several parallels like a lot of some things that they said that There were true stories or true accounts that. They took from in the story. there was a baseball player that was shot by a crazed fan.

Timothy Williams: so a lot of different things I thought I had that on my notes, but obviously I didn't but yeah, yeah.

nicholas pepin: There was one who actually broke a clock. And if you were ever hit it they were gonna give you a watch. And then apparently it took them 50 years actually give the player the watch.

Timothy Williams: That was actually my next note of trivia was gonna put it but good you covered it.

Ben Carpenter: We didn't say we'd give you the watch now.

Timothy Williams: That was good. Yeah. Yeah, it was a Bama Rowell of the Boston Braves doubled off the Ebbets Field scoreboard clock on May 30th 1946.

Ben Carpenter: You'll get it eventually.

nicholas pepin: Yeah.

Timothy Williams: He was promised a free watch by Bulova, but he had to wait until 1987 to receive it. So, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: 

Timothy Williams: So speaking of baseball bats on display that Bat Boy Bobby Savoy gives Roy is called The Savoy special was a brand of beer in the 1930s and was made by the United States Brewing Company. The bat is now the collection at the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum in Cooperstown, New York displayed along with Roy Hobbs jacket in an exhibit titled baseball in the movies. So they actually have the Savoy special

01:05:00

nicholas pepin: Yeah, the Baseball Hall of Fame is something else if you haven't had a chance to get out, there it's an experience. It's just especially for somebody who's is deeply into baseball as I am like it is a I mean,…

Timothy Williams: right It's an experience. Yeah.

nicholas pepin: I don't want to use the word religious experience because that's not quite accurate. But it was on I mean I was my father and I went up there. early 2000s And it was something else.

Timothy Williams: Very cool. have you been before Ben? Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Maybe I'll make it up for one of these days.

Timothy Williams: as I say yeah, say

Ben Carpenter: My son has brought it up several times that he want. You would like to go there as along with my wife that's…

Timothy Williams: Wow, okay. All right road trip.

Ben Carpenter: where he gets it from. They're both big Baseball fans. Mhm. Yeah.

Timothy Williams: Let me know when you guys are going. I'll just meet up there and We'll do a mini episode because I would love to go as well. So All right, last little trivia nugget I have in 2001 Bill Simmons of ESPN magazine compiled Ray Hobbs 1939 rookie season stats taking cues from the movie. His line would have looked something like this a hundred and fifteen games played 400 at bats 92 hits 44 home runs 106 RBIs a 350 batting average a voice is going out a 350 batting average Hobb struck out 85 times and walk 75 times. Now how he calculated all that? I don't know but it sounds cool.

nicholas pepin: yeah, I was watching the movie and I was like that's Extrapolating a…

Timothy Williams: That's 2001 was a four it was before AI so he obviously had some kind of.

nicholas pepin: I don't know where you got from.

Timothy Williams: Algorithm working for him figuring out. probably have Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: I guess he's factoring in the Roy slump in the middle of the moon,…

Timothy Williams: right He's probably factoring in whatever the stats were normal around that time,…

Ben Carpenter: but

Timothy Williams: I guess to I don't know I've said I don't know…

Ben Carpenter: Okay, yeah.

Timothy Williams: if I don't know how accurate is with the sound of cool.

Timothy Williams: And as we've learned on this episode on this show. If you want accurate or cool cool wins every time or logic versus cool cool will always win. So especially in the 80s All right box office in critical reception.

nicholas pepin: Absolutely.

nicholas pepin: especially in the 80s

Timothy Williams: The natural was released in North American theaters on May 11th, 1984 debuting. Number one at the box office. The only other new release that week was the Chuck Norris and late Lucas Jr. Team Up action comedy firewalker, which took the number three slot which actually did better than I thought it would have. The natural remained of the number one slot for the second week before being booted by Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom over the Memorial Day weekend. but it did stay in the top 10 for several weeks after that. So it's still did pretty well. And I was how I was looking at the box office. So like Indiana Jones one that week and then the following week. It was beat by one of the Star Trek sequels and then the week after that because we had in June. Ghostbusters and Gremlins open the same weekend and they were one and two respectively so the summer of 84 was ridiculous.

Ben Carpenter: It's incredible when you look back and you see all these movies just bunched together that you can't believe they all came out just within weeks of each other.

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

Timothy Williams: Yeah. All right, critical reception Rotten Tomatoes. Has it 83% on the Tomato Meter in an 88% audience score IMDb has its 7.4 out of 10 with viewers and a 61 on Metacritic which we always talk about Metacritic as always so much lower but that even seems low for this movie. but what do you guys say? You think it's in the 70s 80s out of a hundred? Where would you place it?

nicholas pepin: I'd probably be on the IMDb side of things.

Timothy Williams: What about you Ben?

nicholas pepin: Maybe a little lower than seven four,…

Ben Carpenter: Nah, I mean I'd give it a solid B.

nicholas pepin: but not much.

Ben Carpenter: I'll give it an 85.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'm kind of like the upper 70s low 80s for me. I think I'm a big re watchable rewatchability. That's where I kind of rank my stuff I could definitely watch this again. It's not gonna be one that I'll watch every year like I do Bull Durham and major league and Field of Dreams, but it's a good one to pull out every couple of years. If I'm looking for an inspirational story, more of a slower paced drama. It's definitely got that appeal to it. But yeah. I'm not mad with either one of y'all's.

01:10:00

Timothy Williams: Picks either so I think it's good. I don't think it's like I said, I don't think it's just great as it's been hyped up to be which it's tough and a movie's been hyped for 40 years. You kind of expect something and it doesn't need it…

Ben Carpenter: Right and…

Timothy Williams: but Yeah, yeah.

Ben Carpenter: you've seen parodies of it and you said you've seen the end.

nicholas pepin: the

Ben Carpenter: I mean you said,…

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

Ben Carpenter: you've seen it millions of times,…

Timothy Williams: right In context.

Ben Carpenter: but you haven't seen it in context before it's right.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, so yeah.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I kind of sat down expecting it to be better than it was or…

Timothy Williams: Mm-hmm

Ben Carpenter: there's nothing really that wrong with it.

Timothy Williams: Right. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: But it was more.

Timothy Williams: Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: It was as much simpler story than I thought then I kind of remembered it being and it was just a lot of the story beats were just really Pat a lot of cliches that I didn't know maybe they were cliches in 84, but

Timothy Williams: As cliche back then yeah.

nicholas pepin: right Yeah,…

Ben Carpenter: Right,…

Timothy Williams: Yeah.

nicholas pepin: that's the thing. I think maybe this is the movie that gave us the cliches.

Ben Carpenter: in a…

Ben Carpenter: yeah, or at least some of them But…

Timothy Williams: cuz like mm-hmm.

Ben Carpenter: then the cinematography you mentioned was amazing and the music is great. And all the acting is great.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, I'll just say the performances are a solid. There's not really a bad.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Timothy Williams: I don't think anybody was bad in their role. we usually talk about somebody that really wasn't that great. But I think everybody did really well on the movie for Even Kim Basinger, but that's another story.

nicholas pepin: I…

Timothy Williams: Yeah.

nicholas pepin: I think Kim basing his role was just to prove that women are the devil.

Timothy Williams: Yeah that once again Nicholas she buddies up to the star to be his downfall because she's working for somebody else. So, that's definitely the cliche we kind of saw coming But enjoyable good movie definitely worth if you haven't seen it Why Have you listened as far and not seen it but definitely worth watching if you haven't seen it.

Ben Carpenter: Yes far better than jaws 3D.

Timothy Williams: Yes, yes Way better way better and…

Ben Carpenter: That we can all agree on I believe.

Timothy Williams: side note. me and Tyler just watched Jaws the Revenge this week. we had put it off and we watched it and so she had seen it before.

Ben Carpenter: I'm sorry.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, she had seen it before…

Ben Carpenter: Really?

Timothy Williams: which against I remember this one. Yeah. it wasn't as terrible as I thought it was gonna be. It's not great. I'd almost say it's almost a little better than jaws 3D only because I think Josh already just because the effects are so terrible but it's not great still go. But the first one will always be the best one. But anyway,

Ben Carpenter: Yeah.

Timothy Williams: all anything else we want to talk about the natural before we close this episode.

Timothy Williams: Okay.

nicholas pepin: I was confused by a one thing in particular.

Timothy Williams: Yes.

nicholas pepin: so Barbara Hershey Is apparently going around killing men…

Timothy Williams: Right or going to be the best?

nicholas pepin: who best in their field. Are going to be the best so they said a football player and…

Ben Carpenter: mmm

nicholas pepin: somebody else.

Timothy Williams: 

nicholas pepin: I don't remember. They give us at least two different guys. so she sees Roy Hobbs strike the Wham around…

Timothy Williams: Yeah, yeah, that's what it seemed like. Yeah.

nicholas pepin: because she's clearly gonna kill him. And then she see so she sees this and goes. this guy's why after it seems like three she's on a mission of some kind that they don't really bother to explain except for a throwaway line just to make sure that we know that this woman…

Timothy Williams: mmm

nicholas pepin: who shows up is going to do it.

nicholas pepin: She just immediately throws herself out the window. that made no sense to me she's on a mission. why would she not just be alright. …

Ben Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah,…

nicholas pepin: that's another one down.

Ben Carpenter: I agree that kind of seemed weird and…

nicholas pepin: Where's the next?

Ben Carpenter: it just made I think as a kid again, when you see these movies as a kid things mean different that you pick up on other things and…

Timothy Williams: Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: And the fact that she was killing them with silver bullets. I kind of maybe thought maybe they were vampire.

Timothy Williams: Werewolves. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: I mean a werewolves. Yeah, but

nicholas pepin: Yeah s***.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, so really Barbara here Hershey's characters the hero of the story.

nicholas pepin: There's the best of this sport. They must be a werewolf.

Ben Carpenter: She's going around killing werewolves.

nicholas pepin: No, they really didn't there's this whole thing deeply affected the whole movie because it's what derailed is his career for 16 years. It's what ended his career after a season? And you don't even get after you see her shoot him and…

Timothy Williams: mmm right

nicholas pepin: he goes down and then you go back and she's just not there. and then she jumped out the window like they don't even and it isn't even until later on that they're with suicide, …

01:15:00

Timothy Williams: Was he the best there ever would be like she's like,…

nicholas pepin: wait Hold on now what?

Timothy Williams: okay, no one's ever gonna be as great as him. So Ilished. mean we're totally speculating. But yeah it's an interesting. once again that part of the story I felt would have been more Central like it it happens.

nicholas pepin: Yeah, it's

Timothy Williams: And then it's almost just like okay that happened moving on to him, Helping this team win like it. I felt like they would have told more of that story. but

nicholas pepin: Yeah, man something that's so important to the story that they just kind of like.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, and once again, I think they said Some people said that it's very much a sanitized version of the book…

nicholas pepin: Yeah, that's not talk about that anymore.

Timothy Williams: which the book goes into more detail because they actually had somewhat of a relationship before she shoots him. So there was more backstory there.

Timothy Williams: And then too because it's just most fables have plot holes. So why I think too much about it, so I don't know.

Ben Carpenter: Yeah, I definitely got that sort of feeling that that was their sort of overriding. they just thought yeah,…

Timothy Williams: mmm

Ben Carpenter: It's just a parable about baseball so yeah, there was a lot of stuff that if he kind of think about it literally and logically that you would Yeah,…

Timothy Williams: It's not going to make sense. Yeah.

Ben Carpenter: yeah. And that was definitely one of them.

Timothy Williams: All right anything else? covered it I think we're All right. this episode's 80s flick flashback feedback. Someone that wrote in a nice review for us. I wonder share with everybody. So this one is from Thomas E Donahue and he gave us a five-star rating on Apple podcast and said, this is what I'm talking about with exclamation point. I'm sure that's how I meant to say it because that's how I said This is what I'm talking about. He said now this is the kind of cast and content that I'm glad someone directed me to wish I found it sooner but that just means I have a cache to listen to instead of having to wait for more. So thanks Thomas for that great review. Appreciate you taking the time to share that on Apple podcasts always good to get those reviews. All right. thank you Nicholas and Ben for joining today.

nicholas pepin: Okay.

Timothy Williams: Appreciate you guys being on here Nicholas what you got coming up on pop culture roulette.

nicholas pepin: Just the normal pop culture. I'm using of whatever we feel like talking about. So. We were doing some. Different topics and…

Timothy Williams: Okay,…

nicholas pepin: different things we got a couple brackets that are coming down the pipe that I don't want to give too much away. So

Timothy Williams: very cool. So definitely check out pop culture roulette with Nicholas on his podcast and Ben does not have a podcast but it's always good to have them on the show one of our newest hosts glad to have you back. got you down for another one here coming up. I'm pretty sure pretty soon.

Ben Carpenter: Cool. I will look forward to it.

Timothy Williams: Yeah, yeah. All right folks that's a wrap on today's episode of the 80s flick flashback podcast. If you had as much fun as we did be like Thomas and show us some love with an awesome review and a shiny five star rating on Apple podcast. don't forget to hit that follow or subscribe button and spread the words all your 80s flick love and fouls got questions. Just want to chat about your favorite flicks. You can reach out to us on Facebook Instagram and tiktok and if you're feeling super cool, why not support the show over at buy me a coffee calm, even a little as five bucks a month makes a big difference plus you can totally rock some killer 80s click flashback gear and original designs, but checking out our online store at 80 slick flashback.com and tea public com for all the nostalgic swag you could ever want Thanks again for tuning in everybody. I'm Tim Williams for the 80s flick flashback podcast. It took me 16 years to get here. You play me. I'll give you the best I got.